LOURDES PORTILLO Oral History

Public, English transcript

00:00:00:00

START, LOURDES PORTILLO ORAL HISTORY -- LOURDES PORTILLO

Opening Credits

00:00:19:04

INT: Could you tell me when and where you were born?

LP: Chihuahua, Mexico in 1943, and that's a northern part of Mexico, which is the closest actually to the U.S. [INT: Okay, good. And is that where you grew up?] Part of the time I grew up in Chihuahua, and a lot of my summers I spent there. The rest of the time I grew up in Mexicali, which is right on the border with Calexico. And I was remembering this morning when I woke up very early at 1:00around 5:00 in the morning that actually I spoke English very early on, because my parents would send me to school in the U.S. I had to cross a border every morning to go Our Lady of Guadalupe Catholic School, you know, since I was in the 3rd grade. [INT: Why did they do that, was I a better school, was it...?] It's a better, well, it was considered a better school because once you live in the border, you know, you see the North as something that is better than the South. So, Mexicans have... to this day, send their children across a border, you know, to school. [INT: And then you moved, your family left Mexico?] Then in... at around age 13, my father was an administrator of a newspaper on the border, it was called The ABC, and my father originally, when he started working, when he was first married he was a linotype operator. And a linotype 2:00operator is kind of like a... it was a technical wonder to have a linotype. I don't know if you know what a linotype is. [INT: I do not.] That was originally, all type before it was printed was separated, each letter, each space, each period, and you had to set it in these things. So, they invented the linotype, which created lines of type, leaded type, and it could be put together and printed; so it was a good novelty, it was a big thing, you know? But he had left that and become an administrator, and a friend of his in Los Angeles offered him a job as a linotype operator. But he said, "Life is way better in the United States, and it would be better for you and your children," and my father, you know, proceeded to get all our paper in order, and we you know immigrated to 3:00L.A. [INT: To L.A.? What was that like for you as a 13 year old?] It was like a tragedy, you know, it was awful. It was very, very hard. It was... yeah, I think it created me, it made me who I am today, you know, that move. Because it was so painful. We moved to a place... from a place where you're cherished and where your culture is cherished and where yourself, you're an integral person to a place where you feel that somebody wants to destroy you, or you know, you're not wanted, you're the unwanted really. And that's where I feel that it created kind of my social consciousness. You know, fortunately, I was 13, I wasn't younger, 4:00because I think it would've really wounded me more than it did, you know, to have moved. Moving from Mexico to the United States to a suburb in L.A. was hard, [INT: Yeah] you know, because it was mostly white people, and we were... the Mexicans on the block. So, you can imagine that. I mean... [INT: Yeah. Do you have siblings?] I have siblings, yes, I do. [INT: What's the age difference and how many of you are there?] There's five of us and I'm the eldest. Yeah.

00:04:36:17

INT: Did it affect your siblings differently than you?

LP: Yeah, so it was different for them, because they could... they really became involved in the Chicano Movement, you see was... it was the Civil Rights, and 5:00then the Chicano Movement, and then there was a fight, you know, for some kind of, you know, demand of respect, and by that time you know I was older, so that I had kind of jumped that experience. [INT: Where were you at?] Where was I at? [INT: In your experience, yeah, what was it, like if they were... where did you focus your angst and your energy?] I had my own little teeny Chicano Movement going on inside of myself, you know? Like, it became, for me, like my reason for being as they say in French, but I won't say it in French I'll say it in English, you know, right? It was my reason for living, for being, and for becoming, you know, who I've become, you know? And to struggle and to do things 6:00that are going to represent our humanity. And that was my purpose, you know? [INT: Did you keep in touch with friends from Mexico?] Mexico? It was very hard, it was very hard. It was very painful not to have them, you know, very painful. But slowly, you know, slowly I, you know, attained other friends, and learned other things, and at the same time that it was painful, then it became a little bit exciting, because it was also my teenage years, you know? So, I met a lot of different people and Los Angeles actually was very helpful in that way, because once you start driving, and you start traveling to Hollywood, and then you realize that there's this whole other life, right, that is available to you. So, 7:00in a certain way I kind of buried my, deep in myself, you know, my pain and then it became my force. Just like Darth Vader. [INT: I like that. What was it like for your mother?] Oh, my mother, I'm sure it was very, very hard for my mother. It was difficult. My mother had lived a different life in Mexico we had somebody that would help with the children and with the house and my mother came to be the sole housekeeper and cook and everything for five children. So, and also to be away from her family, to be away from her friends, you know, so it was... these are the realities of immigrants. [INT: What would you say are the most prevalent qualities that you inherited from your parents, like how would you 8:00describe them and what part of them do you see in yourself?] I think some kind of tenacity, I thin? humor, from both of my parents, they were both very funny. You know, and I admire that in them. And also their love, you know, for their family. [INT: What kinds of interests and hobbies and things did you have at that age, and like after you came to Los Angeles?] I always had the hobby of photography when I was younger. My father had given me a little camera. And when I was going to grammar school, you know, I won a contest of... in a photography contest, and I was always very enamored of that. [INT: That's cool.]

00:08:38:02

INT: Did you have any idea what you wanted to be when you grew up?

LP: I don't think I knew what I wanted to be. I remember graduating from high school and going to the counselor's office. I went to Catholic high school, and 9:00going to the counselor and I wasn't a great student, and I think partly because I had to adapt, partly, but also I'm dyslexic, so I had you know that problem. But at the same time I'm personable and you know I really got along with people very well. And when I went to the counselor I wanted, you know, I wanted to go to college, and I remember the counselor saying to me, "You know, I think you should study to be a secretary. I think you'd be very good at it." And I said, "Oh, no. I don't think so. I don't think I would be very good at it at all," which is true. I would be terrible, you know, and what a terrible idea. So, I thought, but "If she's a counselor and this is what she thinks I should be, you know, I wonder what I should be?" So, it was not clear. [INT: Before we get into when it did become clear, before we get into that I want to talk a little bit 10:00more about just like the childhood, and I mean you mentioned that what the neighborhood was like, suburban and very white. What else can you tell me and sort of painting a picture of that neighborhood where you lived?] Uh, very isolated, very far away from any central streets, you know, the way I was used to living. Not a lot of life around, you know, because they were new tract homes. Oh, that's what happened. [INT: Where was it?] La Puente, you know, and it was what happened at that time when we moved there in the late-50s, there used to be fields of flowers. And they created tracts of homes. My mother had managed to save enough money so that we, in Mexico, and she brought it, and with that money we did a down... actually I bought the house, because they didn't 11:00speak English. So, I had to go buy the house. You know, and we have it to this day, this house in La Puente. And so, so it was very isolating, you know, and strange. [INT: What is it like as a child to take on such a responsibility? I mean, obviously you're buying the house, but your parents are buying the house, but because you speak the language and they don't, what is that like?] Well, it's like normal. It's normal, because you have to do it. I had to put my brothers and sisters in school, you know, I had to, you know, I had to take on a lot of responsibility because I spoke English. I mean, not very well, but more than anybody else. [INT: More than your brothers and sisters?] Exactly, right. So, I had to do all those things. And I think that made me a very in charge kind 12:00of person, and eventually very bossy and people don't like that part of me. But it came in handy in my profession. [INT: I'm sure it did. Did your parents have any plans or hopes, expectations for what you would do when you grew up? Or when you graduated from high school?] Let's see, well, yeah, I think my father wanted me to be a journalist, that was his dream, you know? But he also wanted me to swim the English Channel, you know, I... my father always had big dreams for me. Because he worked in a newspaper he always brought me newspapers and books and things, and then one time I remember he brought a newspaper and there was this woman who had crossed the English Channel, and she was filled with, I think I don't know if it was whale fat or what, you know, and it was very dark, a very dark picture, and he said, "Look at this woman. She crossed the English Channel, 13:00you're great..." actually I was a very good swimmer, and he said, "You can do the same." [INT: And did you ever have any desire to do such a thing?] No, I'm afraid of sharks. I like to swim in pools. [INT: Yeah, yeah, I'm with you on that. Okay.]

00:13:02:11

INT: What about movies when you were a kid, did you go to the movies very often?

LP: Yes. [INT: You did?] Yes, yes, yes. I went to the movies a lot. In Mexico, the movies and to Mexican people the movies are, you know, a great entertainment, and ever since I was very young I went to the movies. And I lived like one block away from a theater. So, I have great memories of going to the movies with my cousins. [INT: Yeah, and then what about when you moved to L.A.?] It was different. The cinema was much further, my father had to take us, drive us and he then had to come back and pick us up. So, it wasn't, you know, it 14:00wasn't as accessible. [INT: Sort of the isolate piece of it?] Yes, it was the isolated thing, and also television was much more present in Los Angeles. So, we watched a lot of television. And I remember that my English was not so good, so I would, we would watch like the Mickey Mouse Club, and I would try to pronounce the way that they were pronouncing in the television, that helped me with my pronunciation. [INT: Yeah, do you remember the first movie you ever saw?] I do. I think it was an Errol Flynn movie, no, no, I'm sorry, that's not... that's the one that I remember because I loved the shot from the mast down, you know, but I didn't know that I loved the shot from the mast down, but I loved the idea that you could look down at the pirate ship, right? I saw actually Charlie Chaplin, yeah, and my, an uncle of ours took us to see all the Charlie Chaplin films. 15:00Yeah. [INT: That's great. Did you have any inkling that you might go into film?] 16:00Well, that was something that was so not in my dreams, not in my consciousness, I don't know, I didn't know how you could make a film. I didn't understand, you know, but I loved them. [INT: What was your sense of Hollywood at that time? Both in Mexico...?] Not even Hollywood. I wasn't thinking of Hollywood. I mean, I didn't realize that all the movies were made in Hollywood, until later, later much later. You know, when I was like out of high school, then it all became clear. [INT: Right.]

00:15:27:06

INT: So, tell me a little bit about what you did after high school.

LP: After high school I went to college, but I started seeing... meeting people that were from Hollywood. You know I started meeting people that lived in Hollywood, young, young kids. And I had a friend whose father was a screenwriter, and I was going to college and she said to me, "Why don't you come help me on my film?" And I said, "I don't know what, I don't know, you know, I don't know what to do, what... I don't know how I can help you." And she said, "Oh, you can just come." And she was making a film, a documentary film for Britannica Films, her name was Sally Loeb. And she made a film about a little blind boy, and I remember the whole crew was from UCLA, they were all film students. And I was the only one that wasn't, and I was like the, just the P.A., you know, but you know just trying to help out. And everybody's working, it's all exciting, and to me it was like wonderful to finally see how this thing is 17:00made, how the mechanical, you know, actions make a film. And I took to it immediately, and I remember working very hard and the producer, this wonderful old guy, he wasn't old, I mean, he was half-my-age, but I remember he came, you know, and I was very enthusiastic in everything that I did and I helped everyone. And he said, "You know what, you're the only one who knows what they're doing. All these kids, ahh." [INT: Wow.] And I thought, you know, that's so profound for a kid. "You're the only one who knows what they're doing." And I thought, "Really? All right. You know, so this is for me. This is something that I really love.? And I understood film, intuitively I understood. When I went to 18:00college, I went to junior college, it was called Mount Sack, which is close to La Puente, that's where I began. Yeah. [INT: Okay. And so, then that seems to be when your kind of fascination and real understanding for film was born then?] Exactly, right, right. And at the same time, I liked my art classes more than I liked the other classes, and I remember you know taking theater, and writing something for theater that you know was very successful, and I knew that I had some kind of facility for all that. Yeah. [INT: So, then what did you do next?] Well, you know, I just.. I'm trying to get jobs to do that, but I was going to school as well, and then I had to work, and I kind of dropped everything. And I 19:00worked as a dental assistant while I was going to school, and I couldn't pursue film, you know how that is, and then I got married, you know, to a young dentist that I was working with in this clinic, and I kind of dropped filmmaking. And we decided to come and move to San Francisco, and when we moved to San Francisco, and then I started having children and one thing lead to the other and there was just no time as most mothers know, you know, to pursue anything else, but I loved poetry and I loved the art scene in San Francisco, and that was very inspiring for me, very, very inspiring, and poetry most of all, you know, and the art, and everything that was happening in the '70s. [INT: So, give me a little bit of time reference. So, you around what year did you get married?] Yeah, I got married in '69. [INT: And then you moved to San Francisco when?] When in... '72... 70-something around there, yeah. [INT: Okay.] Yeah.

00:19:50:18

LP:So there was this wonderful kind of community of artists here at that time, it was just a very bohemian and very romantic and very, you know, I don't know, very inspiring. So, I met one person, another person that.. and I met this woman called Nina Serrano. And Nina was married to Saul Landau, Saul Landau was a documentary filmmaker, and also a filmmaker, and they had just recently made a film in Chile, called ¡QUE HACER!, Nina's a poet and a writer and she's still alive and a wonderful person. And she was the one that you know when were engaged in this group called Third World Communications, it was the first time 21:00that a lot of people of color, different colors, different races got together and organized and wrote books and poetry, and Nina said, "Let's make a film." Because I'd made a film before, you know, Nina had with her husband. "And let's propose something to the American Film Institute." And I said, "Really?" She said, "Yes, yes. You're an artist." And I said, "I am?" And that's how we started, you know, making the first film that we made, which was AFTER THE EARTHQUAKE. [INT: Right.] Yeah. [INT: And that was fiction, right?] Yeah. [INT: Okay. So, did you write the script, did you write it together?] Yes, we wrote it together. We wrote the script together, and we directed it together, you know, and we edited it together, and you know we did everything together. But I felt 22:00really like this was it, this was what I was gonna do. [INT: That's so great.] Yeah. And I was pregnant. [INT: Oh, really?] Yeah. Yeah. [INT: With which child?] With the third child, that's 34 years old now, yeah. And there's pictures of me with Chris Samuelson who was the sound woman, and your professor, and we both had these big bellies. She's got all her sound gear. [INT: That's dedication.] Yeah, it was love. That's what it was, you know, it was love of a profession, a love of an expression. And I saw that, you know, making this film because we wanted to make a film about the community, the Nicaraguan community, about the Latino community, because those were the deepest concerns that came 23:00forth again here in San Francisco through art, you know? of social justice, you know, in art. And Nina was the... really the midwife of that. [INT: And did you feel like you were kind of you know finding your voice for the first time?] I felt, yeah, definitely that I... I felt like I had a voice. And that it was worth expressing, yeah right AFTER THE EARTHQUAKE, you know, I was actually taking some classes at the San Francisco Art Institute, you know, just one class here and there, because I had three boys, three children, and then I met Susana Munoz, Susana Blaustein really, that was her name then, and I remember I was editing a film in the editing room and she came by and it was a Tango, and she was from Argentina, and she saw, "Wow, you know Tango and this and that." And I 24:00said, "Yes, yes." And she said, "Why don't we make a film?" I said, "Really?" "Yeah, let's make a film. I'll tell you a story." And she told me the story about the women on Plaza de Mayo. She told me the story of the dictatorship in Argentina, and this was the first time that I really had a lot of knowledge about what was happening in South America. And it was here in San Francisco that enabled me to really engage in those social movements in Latin America, you know? And in Brazil, and in Argentina, everywhere, you know? [INT: What was it about San Francisco that enabled that?] I think it's the population at that time here, you know? And the openness. There wasn't just a focus on Chicano film like 25:00there was in Los Angeles. You know, this was about everywhere. We were, for example, I have friends that were very much engaged in the struggle for the I Hotel, the International Hotel, I don't know if you know that, you're too young. But there was a hotel that was filled with men that had come from the Philippines, and lived by themselves in this hotel, because they were not allowed to marry when came as farm workers. And they were trying to destroy the I Hotel and get rid of these older that had no one. So, it became a cause, you know, for all of us, it's also to make a film about that. So...

00:25:22:09

INT: I'm just curious about what the transition from Los Angeles to San Francisco, was that very easy for you, that particular move?

LP: Yes, yes, it was. I was older, I was married. You know, and I was going to a really exciting place, a really, really exciting place, you know, that had all this cultural life, that had, you know, a history of bohemian life...

00:25:53:11

INT: So, we're talking about how old you were when you really started making films.

LP: Yeah. Yeah, around, in my mid-30s, I started with that film, but it was very, very hard because of the children. And it became like a problem me and my husband. [INT: Oh, really?] Yeah. Because the husband that I had was not really... I mean, he wanted to be supportive, but he couldn't be. It was too hard for him. You know, he had just come from a different reality than mine, you know? It's like two people that are so different. At the beginning they're not so different, but at the end they're very different. So, I kind of you know kind of held back and started doing more like art films, in the Art Institute, you 27:00know scratching on film, and that kind of thing, which I love very much, but it wasn't as satisfying. So, I continued with making the film LAS MADRES. You know, with Susana, and we started fundraising, and people were excited about it, because this story had not been out, nobody knew about las madres at Plaza de Mayo. I mean, people in Argentina knew, but the world didn't know that these women had been looking for their disappeared children, and there was, you know, I don't know thousands and thousands of people disappeared. So, it was an exciting moment to fundraise and to get enthusiasm around the film, and we 28:00managed to do it. [INT: How long did you film in Argentina?] We were in Argentina three times. We couldn't really film during the dictatorship because we were in danger. You know, the mothers didn't want us to do that, because they knew you know something could happen to us. So, we had to wait, until Alfonsin came into power and the Junta was gone, and that's when we began. But what we didn't understand was that, you know, at the same time that the Junta was gone, the Junta was still in power, really. So, I mean, we did suffer that somewhat you know? Nothing happened to us, but things happened to our film, you know, things would happen to the mothers. The first time that we went, we took as you know, it wasn't video, it was 16mm film. So, we took a big how do you call those 29:00things? [INT: A trunk.] A trunk. A trunk, but you know, a film trunk filled with film. And what... and we got a chain and a big lock, so that it couldn't be opened. And lo and behold, that was the greatest thing that we did, because at one point they came into our flat where we were living, while we were filming, and they were looking for something, and they destroyed the whole house, but they couldn't open this trunk. And they couldn't lift it, because it was so big, you know, and bulky. [INT: Where you there the time that they came or were you out?] No, no, no. No, no, no. ...Well, what's interesting that I think about this film also is if you keep in mind that we both went to the Art Institute, we're both making films that are not conventional films, they're not Hollywood 30:00films, and they're really not really documentaries as they were made in those days. You know, the '80s, all right? So, we both went... and Susan is very intelligent, you know, and we both thought, "How are we gonna make this film? We've never learned how to make a documentary. Nobody has taught us how to make a documentary. How do you do it?" So, I had worked for other people here in San Francisco in my enthusiasm for film in other documentaries, and I said, "Well, what we have to do is study it, that's what we have to do. We're gonna get some films, we're gonna some documentary films, and we're gonna see how they create them, and then we're just gonna follow that pattern." And that's what we did. We saw a few films, and we said, "Okay, I said, look, this is how you make it. You 31:00make it from this perspective, this point of view, or you get a little bit of this and a little bit of that. It was like a recipe." And that's how we made the film from our own studies, not from any schooling that we got. Which was interesting. I mean, I consider that to be like something that was... that I always thought, "Wow, we just went and looked it up. You know, and did it." [INT: Did you find that at all daunting, or not really?] No, not really. No, not really. Yeah, no. [INT: Okay. Did you and Susana talk ahead of time about how you were gonna collaborate or... what was that like?] We did. We did, and we said that we were going to co-direct, co-produce, co-everything. Well, I... we were successful in doing it. You know, in co-writing it, co-directing, you know we said, "One day you, one day me." We didn't even choose subjects. We said, 32:00"Just one... this day for you, this day for me." [INT: Really?] "Yeah, and you just take whatever," you know, "and do it." I mean, we were just novices really, so that's how we did it. [INT: So, wait, you said you went three different times to Argentina?] Yes. [INT: How long did you stay each time or was it different?] It was different, you know, we went to shoot twice, we went to scout once, you know, we fundraised a lot, we spent a lot of time fundraising; that was hard. [INT: How did you find and then approach the subjects, the mothers you ended up using in the film?] Well, the mothers originally when... the first time we went we went to the... they had a house. And we went and interviewed them and talked to them, and then another time Susana also went by herself, because she was from 33:00Argentina, so she would go visit her parents. So, that's how we determined what mothers we going to interview. So, they were the mothers that... once we had our story of how we wanted to tell it, you know, we picked and chose, you know the mothers that were gonna represent the story.

00:33:07:09

INT: So, and the film came out I guess in '86, right?

LP: Yeah, '85, I think. Yeah. The thing about the Mothers of Plaza de Mayo which I've never encountered ever since that time was that they were so valiant, that they never were afraid. They were never afraid. They would talk about it everywhere. They were brave like anything, and they were intelligent, and they were sharp, and they were amazing, they were a big, big influence on me, you know, at that time in my life, they were... I can't... they were like warriors, 34:00geniuses. You know, and they were warm and they were... we would go like when we first went and I remember we went to the Plaza de Mayo, and we were not filming, we were just observing to see what we going to do. And supposedly the Junta was not in power anymore, and we were walking and there was this man taking pictures of us, but close-ups. And they knew that it was, you know, from the armed forces, and this little woman about this high went up to this guy and she swung a purse and just whacked him in the face. And this, you know, this guy was a soldier probably, you know? And they were not afraid. They were not afraid, this 35:00was the most beautiful thing. [INT: Yeah, it's amazing, I mean, the power and that fearlessness, because for years clearly they lived in fear and in silence, and they were not doing that anymore."] They never lived in silence. [INT: They didn't?] They never. They always protested. That's the thing about Argentinian mothers, they will always protest. [INT: But it seemed like there was a timeframe and you know perhaps I understood it wrong, that where when the child disappeared, and then when they finally sort of, the mothers started to find each other, and so that's what I'm referring to.] I think it was kind of immediate. Because they started searching for their kids. And then, when we asked them, you know, "How can you be like this? You know, how can you be so 36:00brave?" And they said, "When you have lost everything, you have nothing left to lose." [INT: Yeah. Wow. Yeah, that's really, really powerful.] Yeah, yeah. [INT: And heart-wrenching.] Yeah. They're mostly dead now. There's one left that I know, you know. [INT: Did you keep in touch with them?] I did. We always kept in touch with them, yes. We had real relationships with them. They would visit us, you know, even just more recently I was in Argentina about three or four years ago, three years ago, I believe, and I went to see, you know, the mother who's left, and it was wonderful. It was just very great, because I think every film that I have made, I have kept in touch with those people, and they've become a 37:00part of my life, you know, and they become my life kind of, you know? And that's what I love about documentary. You know, it's like you never let go of them. [INT: Yeah. Is that, do you find that is common among your fellow documentary filmmakers that they keep in touch with their subjects in the same degree that 38:00you have?] I don't know, it depends. You know, some people just say, no, you know, you go in there, get the story and you got it, and you know move on. You know, but I'm a different person. You know, I don't... I can't move on, they become a part of me, and I'm a part of them. [INT: Well, also these topics are incredibly personal, and you really seem to forge a pretty intense connection.] Yes. [INT: That makes sense. But it does seem, not highly unusual, but I don't see that as the norm or the most common. I don't know. But, so...] I mean, you suck their blood. [INT: Yes, you do.] You know, you do. You do, in a way, but in another way you forge a relationship and it creates you as a person, you know, these choices that, if you're looking for justice, whatever it is you're thirsting for, you know, and I think that's what's driven my work, and also because you know it's become a work of the heart more than a work of the mind or the work of money or anything like that. That has been my trajectory, and it's enriched me I hope, you know, and enriched everyone that I've worked with, I think. [INT: Yeah.]

00:38:33:09

INT: Tell me a little bit what you learned about filmmaking through making that film.

LP: Everything. You know, everything. I learned a lot, you know, I learned about camera work, I learned about people, I learned how to interview people, I 39:00learned about trying to get along with another producer, director, you know, I learned about South America, I learned about editing, you know, everything, everything. It was my schooling, LAS MADRES. [INT: Were there challenges around editing choices with?] Yes, yes, I worked with... we worked with Irving Saraf, a wonderful filmmaker and editor. And I think the greatest challenge was dealing with Susana, you know? We started having problems, [INT: Oh, really?] You know, around choices. And they were not so much the choices, I think the choices were already made, we shot the film so that there weren't many choices. But then egos 40:00started, you know, all these things festering, like somebody has more power than the other. These are real problems that happen between two directors. And that was very naïve on our part to think that we could make a film together. Especially, two strong people and two intelligent people, you know, with a clear vision. And it wasn't that, you know, it was more like recognition that suddenly, you know, there was this whole conflict. [INT: How did you resolve those creative differences and conflicts?] We did the same thing, "Like you work with the editor one day, I work with the editor the next day." I don't know how we made such a wonderful film, sometimes, you know, because sometimes it's so hard, so hard. [INT: That sounds very challenging.] Yeah. Yeah. [INT: And did 41:00you find, I mean, you know, often you envision a certain film, and you'll go out to shoot it, and then you come back and you watch all your footage and you realize you have to sort of re-visualize what you're making, depending on what you got. Did that happen at all with this film, or...?] No, no. No. And actually, it hasn't happened to me. [INT: Oh, really, that's nice.] Yeah. Except for one film, for one film that was very experimental, but that's way into the future from LAS MADRES, you know, yeah. But I think the plan has kind of always fulfilled itself, it was always accessible, there was always a way to work with it, there was always a way to edit it, and you know, it was, I'm lucky. [INT: Yeah, that's great.]

00:41:53:03

INT: What about... how was it getting it screened? Did you show it theatrically, did it show?

LP: Yes. [INT: On Public Television, like what were the venues?] Yes. We... LAS MADRES was how theatrically, and it had like an incredible response. Everywhere it showed, it had an incredible response, because also it was the first time that people had heard about it. And it was very stunning and very, it's a very moving film, and I think a lot to credit of Irving Saraf, too, because he was such a great editor. You know, of putting all that, all those elements together and creating all this... I mean, it was emotional as it was, but I think it was crafted in that way. It traveled all over the world that film, everywhere. You know, and it brought the news of what was happening in Argentina. And it was 43:00received I don't know, you know, dozens of prizes all over. And it was nominated for an Academy Award. [INT: That's what I was gonna say next.] Yeah. [INT: How did that make you feel?] Shocked. [INT: Really?] Shocked, it was shocking. You know, we thought, "Wow, you know, our first documentary and we scored." Yeah it was shocking, and it was wonderful, it was great, you know, to have that recognition. [INT: Great. Did you get any kind of official response or unofficial response from the Argentinian government or anything, was there any kind of?] No, they would never respond, of course, they're too arrogant. But I think the response, when it showed at the Culture Center, San Martine, in Buenos Aires, there was a line of about probably like about six blocks of people trying 44:00to see the film, you know? So, it was, it spoke to them for the first time, a film came forth and said it the way that they had been hearing it from the mothers. Yeah. [INT: Right, that's incredible.] Yeah. [INT: Great work.] Yeah. No, it's a wonderful film. To this day it's very touching to me. Yeah.

00:44:17:18

INT: And then your next film you collaborated with Susana again?

LP: Not entirely. [INT: Not entirely, okay?] Not entirely. We started the film together. [INT: Tell me which film] It's called LA OFRENDA and it's about the Days of the Dead, and we, you know, we decided we were gonna continue to work together, but I saw the whole thing going south, you know, it didn't seem like it was gonna work. But I said, "Look, LAS MADRES, this is another thing that happens with these very, very poignant films is that they take an emotional toll 45:00on you, on your person, you know, your whole body, everything, it just, you suffer with them, and you become a part of that, and it's a lot of it is suffering. And I said, "Look, we got to make another film, let's make a film about..." everybody is also egging us on to make another film. Because once you get nominated you know, oh, you got to keep on producing, right? So, I said, "Let's make a documentary about the Days of the Dead." The Days of the Dead were beginning to be celebrated here in the Mission, you know, Ralph Maradiaga started these celebrations at that time, and I said, "Let's do it, because you know it's so important, and it's another way of looking at death that is not as painful." And she was not, you know, Susana was not that excited about it, but 46:00it was easy to get the money, you know, we could do the research, all that. [INT: Was it easy to get the money because of the Oscar nomination?] Of course. Yes, yes, it was... once you get an Oscar nomination, of course, you know, many doors open for you, you know, it's much easier to have a career. And so it was easy to do in a way, but she didn't really to do it. So, we did the research, we did some shoots together and after that she quit. Yeah. So, then I had to take it on and try to craft it and finish it up. [INT: And was that something, I mean, did you enjoy that or did you...?] Oh, yes. [INT: You did?] Yes, I loved it, but also since we had kind of thought of it, conceived it together, she was gone, and I'm left with all the work to do, right? And this is the first time I 47:00worked with Vivien Hillgrove, this wonderful editor, an amazing person, an amazing, amazingly gifted editor. [INT: And you've worked with her on most every film?] Everything. Yeah. Yeah. [INT: How did you two meet?] There. We met at when they were doing THE RIGHT STUFF, you know with Phil Kaufman, here in San Francisco. Yeah, yeah. So, that's how... somebody said, "Oh, get Vivien to help you edit. She's a great editor." And I said, "Okay," but she was at this time, she I think you know she was working on features. And she was sick of working on features. And she said, "Well, I'm gonna try to work in documentary, because it's earthier, it's more me, you know?" And lo and behold we started working, we edited on three-quarter inch, it's something ridiculous. It was like, you 48:00remember, all these machines, and we were in a basement in Santa Rosa that was so cold, you know, it was terrible, but it was fun, it was wonderful, and it was so elating, you know, to find someone that had my vision, that could take whatever I thought of a step further. [INT: Like speaking the same language?] That's right, that's right. Yeah, kind of the language of the heart. That's what I speak with Vivien. You know, because my films I hope have a heart. You know, and that's what Vivien has facilitated. [INT: And how was the process kind of emotionally of making LA OFRENDA, which was different than your previous film in 49:00a, like you were saying, it was sort of a celebration of this tradition, a cultural tradition.] Right. [INT: That's highly important in Mexican culture as well as other Latin America countries. So, speak to that a little bit, please.] Well, it was joyous, it was joyous to be in Mexico, it was joyous to be in a place where you know not such a national tragedy had happened. You know, and to see how you know my culture was expressed, how I was a part of it, I felt like I came home again, you know, and I could appreciate it and I could love it, and in this you kno? wonderful way. The research was fabulous, you know? It all spoke to me in culturally I think. [INT: Well, I'm sure, I mean, having left when you were 13. Did you go back to visit very often?] Oh, yeah. [INT: Oh, yeah, you said you went for the summers.] Yes, I did. Yeah, yeah, I would go visit. But 50:00never, never in this position, you know? [INT: Did you find that you learned a lot more about traditions of your own culture through making that film?] Oh, yes, yes, I learned a lot about archeology, anthropology, you know, history, all that stuff. Yeah. I was really delighted and happy to be able to express this. And also to share it with people, because I felt like in this culture there was such a negation of death, you know, like people didn't speak about it, and you know, when people died you just forget about them. This was a way of keeping that love alive. Mm-hmm. [INT: And I felt like there was a little bit of a bridge between you know from Mexico to San Francisco in that you know you start in Mexico and then you come to San Francisco, and observe where kind of just a 51:00growing celebration.] Yes. [INT: What did that open up for you in terms of the community that you were living in and how you perceive it and its relationship to you culture?] Well, I mean, there's a whole embracing of you know both things, and you know, an appreciation for this city that has given me that, that has given me a bridge to other places, you know, I don't know that I would have gotten it anywhere else. So, that's I'm so grateful to live here. I mean, this is my home now, you know, I don't yearn to go back to Mexico, I can always go back to Mexico, Mexico's a part of me, and it lives here, too. Mm-hmm. [INT: That's great. There definitely seemed to be a very quality to that film. Was 52:00that an intended?] Yes, yes, of course, yes. Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, the poetry of it, I think that's inherent right, in trying to make a film about beauty and death, and all that. You know, it's not about injustice. It's more about that, you know? So, [INT: That's great.]

00:52:11:02

INT: I'm kind of curious about the overall, this isn't relative to a specific film, but at that time in the '80s, was the vibe to the filmmaking community here in San Francisco very different than it is now?

LP: In LA OFRENDA? [INT: Like around that time when you were making that as well asLAS MADRES.] You know, there's a... I think there's an eclectic kind of... there's always been an eclectic vibe to San Francisco. So there's a lot of 53:00different kinds of filmmaking. And that's what's wonderful, and but we... I think more in the past and now that we were all friends, that we all can collaborate, that we can all understand each other, and there isn't a sense of profound competition. So, yeah, it's always been eclectic, I think, you know? Like, I just had to you know write a letter for Chip Lord, you know, a member of 54:00Ant Farm, you know, it was... who couldn't be more different from me. But we're friends, you know, and we... that's the beautiful part of, you know, my work here in San Francisco, that there's so many different people. [INT: Yeah.]

00:53:42:05

INT: Well and I know you made a few more films in between there, I'm gonna jump up a little bit to THE DEVIL NEVER SLEEPS. [LP: Okay.] Which came out in '94, okay. Now, that was a really different film in a lot of ways. How did you come to the decision to make that film?

LP: My interest in cinema, in film always has originated with poetry, with experimental film, you know, with experimenting, with art, and as you remember as I told you with the Mothers of Plaza de Mayo, I had to go see how a documentary was made. Well, by the time I finished LA OFRENDA, I realized that I was not being true to myself, that I had to be true to myself, because I also have an agenda. I have an agenda of social justice, of representation, all those 55:00concerns are very important to me, and to my family, and to my people, and to I think the way that cinema should express, or should be able give to people of every color; that we have to be true to ourselves, and we have to express it and we have to represent as they say, right? And I was very concerned about wealth, just not concerned, but very interested in post-modernism at the time, I was very interested in Baroque Art, I was very interested in Telenovelas, I was very interested in representation of a family, true representation not idealized. And 56:00but I wasn't kind of making a recipe for myself, it happened perchance that my uncle died. And when my uncle died, I was engrossed in the family gossip, my mother would call, my father would call, my aunt would call and say, "You know what happened, this happened... and no he killed himself, oh my God." You know, and his wife I think wanted his money. You know, it's always the same thing, the woman always wants his money, right? It's like I just couldn't believe what I was living through and I just said, "Oh my God, maybe I should make a documentary about this, you know? It's so, so melodramatic, it's so over-the-top, and I think it'd be nice instead showing the idealized Mexican 57:00family, you know, this is like really raunchy, you know?? So, I started, you know, I wrote a proposal to get money for ITBS, and they gave me the money to do the whole film. And I said, "Okay," you know, "Okay, let's go, you know?" [INT: Before we go a little deeper into it, I want to ask, you said that you felt when you finished LA OFRENDA, that you weren't really being true to yourself and you needed to be more true to yourself, and what do you mean by that? In what ways?] I felt, like, no, in LA OFRENDA, I felt like I was being true to myself, but it was a complicated truth because you know we had shot, and different people had shot three different segments, at different times that I had to put together. But I wanted, I wanted film to show just my vision of things, just me alone, you know? And telling the story the way.. the way my parents taught me, the way they would tell a funny story, the way they would tell about the past, you know? And 58:00I wanted to share that with everybody, so they really could feel like, like they have a propensity to understand us in a way. Okay? [INT: Got it. Yeah. Okay, so then so then you got the money for ITBS and you just were like, "Okay, here we go"?] Yeah. [INT: How did your family feel about it at first when you...?] Well, I told my mother, you know, "I would like to make a film about my uncle, you know, and his death," and my mother said, "That's a wonderful idea." You know, but they didn't know what I was up to. And my father said, "Wonderful, yes, great," you know, they all... they all supported me. And then I went about looking for a cinematographer that I loved, whose work I loved, and I thought 59:00would do justice to it. And I looked for a sound man who would be the perfect sound man, you know? And I looked for people that would be perfect for the film. This was... this was my in its entirety. So, and I did research, and I went and I did a lot of Super 8 films, no high-8, you know? Scout, and from that I devised, you know, how I was gonna do it. And I just started doing it. [INT: So for this one, you were a little more, I can't think of the word right now, but you were a little more careful about selecting your collaborators, prior to going and shooting?] Yes, yes. Yes. It was, it was, I felt like I was making 60:00something that was really my art piece, you know? And I wanted to control all of it. Yeah. It was no longer just a documentary. [INT: Yeah, were there any things that you did differently in your approach to sort of shooting or structuring the story or even in the editing process from your previous films?] Different? In the shooting, yeah. A lot of things were different. Why, you know, I had this relationship with the cameraman, we spoke the same kind of artistic language, and I said, "You know, we're gonna make it into a post-modern film that has all these elements, you know, it has a structure of a Telenovela, and visually you know we're gonna use, you know, post-modern kind of techniques of, 'Okay, let's 61:00use a mirror, we're gonna use mirrors,' and mirrors also, you know, kind of express a Baroque feeling to it, you know, because it multiplies the visual aspect." So, that was the kind of conversation that was a kind preparation that we did for the visual thing. [INT: Yeah, a lot of the visuals are just incredible, I have to say, like the...well, I love the use of the Telenovela.] Right, the Telenovela within the Telenovela. [INT: Yeah, I mean, it was really, and you know, juxtaposed against a certain sound byte or moment, it was like whoa.]

01:01:25:06

INT: And so, I want to talk more about that, but also just the device of the reflective sunglasses with the image in one eye. Like, how did you come up with some of these ideas?

LP: Well, some of them were, you know, we prepared beforehand, others we had to do a pickup shoot. You know, because we didn't have enough images that we shot 62:00in Mexico. Some of them we shot in our studio here, that I had, I had a studio on Delores Street, and like the tomatoes, you know, they're from like the health food store, they're organic, you know, they're from here, and we shot them in the roof of the building; the glasses were because we didn't have that man speaking, I had to send someone to film him, so he filmed him, and I wanted to be present for that, so I just dreamt it up, you know, let's do this, maybe and this will bring me my presence into the screen at this moment. Yeah, so it was all... some of them were things that were thought out long before, and others were more spontaneous, because they were from the pickup shoot, you know, how we 63:00had to make it up, dream it up as we went, and that was like enormously, enormously gratifying with the cameraman and the soundman, I mean, to this day we have a relationship all of us. [INT: Yeah, I mean, it's really great how you describe it as like an art piece, because it shows.] Yeah. Yeah. [INT: It clearly shows in the work itself.] Yeah. [INT: How was it different, the experience with just filming with your family, your own family, and you having a presence in the film?] Right, right, well, I didn't want to have a presence originally, I thought that I didn't need to have a presence, and but you see in the film, during the filming of the film, that I need to have a presence, you know, there comes this moment when you know what are we gonna do, Ofelia's not 64:00gonna be on camera? And so, what do I do? I Kyle, my camera, goes, "Well, gotta be on camera. Because we don't have our villain, what's wrong, you know? And that's where it started, when we're in the bed there in the motel, yeah. So, a lot of things, you know were spontaneous things, and other things, but it was... what was beautiful, it was the working out everything altogether. You know, it's unlike anything else I've made. Well, yes, yes. Also, was bolder and crazier, and then being with my family, you know, it was I felt like a double-agent. [INT: Really?] Oh, yeah. You know, it's a documentary, but you know 10 times. But you know that you know them, and you know that you're gonna betray them, and 65:00you kno? that you're gonna tell things that don't want to say, you know, so it was hard. It was hard, but exciting. [INT: Was there any like particular relationship or person that something unexpected came out of it for you?] Oh, yeah, oh, yes. Well, what wasn't expected was that my uncles and aunts were so angry with me when I finished the film. [INT: Oh, they were?] Oh, yeah. They were... it was another film, it was like another Telenovela. You know, my aunt died like a year afterwards, and my cousin said, "You killed her. You killed her, because she saw that film and it damn neared killed her. And you killed her with your film." You know, and I'd go my mother and father and I said, "My cousin said I killed my aunt." And my mother, "Oh, forget it, you didn't kill 66:00your aunt, you know?" [INT: Was that your Aunt Luis?] Yeah, my Aunt Luis, yeah, she died of a stroke. But you know, these are... things that, I don't think I killed her. [INT: I don't think you did either. But definitely, you were very brave. I mean, that... I couldn't help but think that as I watched it, like that takes a lot of guts to... I mean, you know, exploring the topic itself about a sort of mysterious death circumstances, and then what everybody had to say, and the second wife, and yeah, I mean, you were yeah. And it did very much seem like you know it's a search for the truth. And which is interesting since you said you needed to be true to yourself, and...] Yes. I know, I sacrificed everybody else for the truth, huh? [INT: So, what truths were you left with when you were 67:00done with the film and you had screened it and where were you with that?] No, I felt like I was truthful to myself, I did exactly what I wanted to do with the film, I said it the way I wanted to say it, and I felt that also that I had a mission to do that, you know, that there was a mission for a Chicana to make a film about this at this time, you know, to be there in the cannon, you know, that these films, these things need t? be said and talked about. That was one of the things, and then artistically, I felt very triumphant, you know? And in my family, I felt like my mother and father said, "No, you did right, it's okay, whatever you said it was right, you didn't do anything wrong. Remember, they're very provincial, so they have a different attitude but they understood me, and they kind of said it was okay, you know? [INT: That's important to have that.] 68:00Yeah, I thought so, and I think they knew that. [INT: Yeah. That's great.] Yeah. [INT: How was received outside of your aunts and uncles?] Right, right, right. Well, this also this film was kind of a milestone for me. And it was like what it did is it became like one of the very inspiring films for film students all over Latin American, and in Spain. So, that's... it became like a way of kind of showing my work outside of the U.S. It was very inspiring to the kids, to this day, to young people. Yeah. Yeah, so that was good. And then there were a lot of, you know, films that they would do about their family, because they know 69:00that you know in other cultures it's so difficult to talk about the family and to actually expose things that nobody wants to talk about. And it was an eye-opening, a door, you know, "You can do it," and it was inspiring for them. [INT: So it really kind of became like crossing over of a threshold of more realistic representation of the Mexican or Latin-American culture and family life?] That's right. [INT: Okay.] Yeah. [INT: That's big.] Yeah, I thought it was big, to this day it's big for me. Yeah.

01:09:26:22

INT: Talk a little bit about just the choice that you made creatively about using the clips of Telenovelas in the film, because that was, you know?

LP: Oh, that was, yeah, you know, I think when we were, it was when we went to the acupuncture. So, you know, we became very spontaneous with the things that 70:00we would do, I was very exhausted and I said, "I need to go to an acupuncturist, because I can't sleep, I can't rest, you know, I'm just always thinking and trying to do something." So, we went to the acupuncturist, and while I was getting acupuncture, you know, the ladies that are watching the Telenovela, you know, they're... everybody, the crew is waiting for me to get my acupuncture, the ladies, the receptionist they're watching the Telenovela, it was 3:00, the whole city shut down, nobody, everything was shutdown, completely shut down, you know, and everybody was just looking at the TV, you know, at the Telenovela, and every day that we... it was 3:00, everybody's gone. Oh, they're watching the Telenovela, you know, and we went in to watch the Telenovela, and the Telenovela was exactly what was happening in my film. So, we filmed it, so it became a part of the film. You know? [INT: Yeah. That was great, I really think that was...]

01:10:56:09

INT: Just popped into my head, it's a little bit of a departure, but what happened with your husband, because when you were making LAS MADRES, he didn't really want you to be spending your time that way, but you pursued it anyway?

LP: Yeah. That's when we broke up, yeah, yeah. It ended, yeah. It was just, we had, I wanted to continue to make films, and he wanted a different life. So, it just didn't work out. Yeah, my poor kids. [INT: It happens.] It happens all the time. [INT: It happens all the time.]

01:11:40:12

INT. In one of the articles that I read have credited you and this film THE 72:00DEVIL NEVER SLEEPS as kind of pushing the boundaries of documentar? and sort of the genre in general, and do you agree with that?

LP: I hope so. Yes, I think so. [INT: Was that an intention you set out with?] I was... I have to tell you that I felt like I didn't have that intention, but I felt like I possessed by the film, and possessed by the desire to make this thing. It's like somebody who wants to make a house, you know, I felt like that, I-I'm nothing was gonna stop me and everything was a possibility. [INT: That's great. And so then how did you feel about its general reception? I mean, you talked about the students, and that opening, what...?] Yes. I thought it was 73:00wonderful, you know? And the way that everyone received it really, I mean, here they were very kind, but I think did not understand quite what I was trying to say. [INT: Really?] In a way, in a way, the audiences, you know, I think the institutions have recognized, you know, and they did, I mean, the film was in New Directors, you know, the museums really appreciate that film. So, but the audiences I think were a little perplexed, you know? [INT: Oh, that's interesting.] That's what I think, but I don't know, maybe you know Vivien has a different idea. She... I mean, Vivien says, "That's the greatest film that we made." [INT: It's certainly remarkable work.] Yeah. [INT: And so, how was it working with Vivien that time? I know, it's just been a wonderful collaboration with her, but was there anything different that time or sort of a new ground 74:00that you guys reached?] No, you know, it was freeing, it was freeing for Vivien, too. I think. You know? And when you feel that free to create, it was kind of an ecstatic artistic endeavor, that's what it was for a lot of people. That's what it was, and I've never said it like that; but you know it was an [ecstasies?] that we were, you know, creating this thing. Yeah. It was fun. [INT: That's great, that's really great.]

01:14:10:18

INT: Well, then I wanted to jump to your film in '99, it was CORPUS. [LP: Right.] About the late tejana singer Selena, [LP: Yes.] and her death. What inspired you to make that film?

LP: Again, you know, it was more like of a social justice kind of thing. I came into the living room where my mother and father were watching television, and I 75:00saw... I didn't know who she was, Selena, she was singing and dancing, and for the first time I saw a brown woman singing in English, and I didn't understand it. You have to understand the time. You know, in those... it wasn't common to see that. And I walked in and I said, "Who's that?" to my mother and father, and my mother and father said, "It's Selena," You know, and they gave me the whole rundown, you know, on who Selena was. And I thought, "Wow, you know, that's great," because we have struggled so long and so hard you know to get any of our images in the television and in the theaters, and here it is it's happening and she's got this magnificent voice, she had this great voice, you know? She could've been an opera singer. And I said, "I would love to make a film about her," you know, and that's how it happened. [INT: And was that when she was 76:00still alive?] No, no, I think she had died. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She had died. And it was very recent, but I had... I didn't even know who she was, you know? And it was my parents who told me. So, I started to do the research to do that, and in the course of doing the research, I realized that there was like this kind of Shakespearean tragedy going at the same, you know, at the father wanting, being more ambitious than the daughter, and pushing the daughter, and not... pushing her so hard and knowing her vulnerabilities, you know? And in a way, in a very indirect way, actually exposing her to this terrible danger of being killed, which she was. [INT: Yeah, the Shakespearean tragedy, that makes a lot of sense.] Don't you think? [INT: Yeah.] That's what it was. And that's what I was trying to tell, that it wasn't just a singer but that there are these tragic elements that are unspoken about. Yeah. [INT: Yeah, yeah, it's really sad. Tragic] Yeah. Yeah.

01:16:58:14

INT: How would you say the exploration of Selena's life and death is similar to what you explored in LAS MADRES, and then later in SENORITA EXTRAVIADA?

LP: It seems to me like it has a lot to do between the parent and the child. It's all parent/child things, you know? How you protect your children, how you don't protect your children. What you do for your children, what you don't do for your children. [INT: Why you think you're drawn to that subject?] I just 78:00became aware of it right now. [LAUGH] You know? Yeah. I don't know. I mean, if you see, if we go back to where we started, where you're telling me, you're asking me how was it to come to the US, and to have a child who is the interpreter. A child who does the work of an adult is a way of not protecting a child. So... [INT: Yeah. That's where my mind went.] [LAUGH] Freudian.

01:18:15:08

INT: What did you take away from making CORPUS? Like what was your, I don't know, kind of feeling about that whole thing? I mean, I think when you read about it, it's like, "Oh, it's a documentary about Selena," I don't know, you just kind of think like it might be a little bit melodramatic, which it is.

LP: Yeah. [INT: But it's also, maybe it's the tragic, this sort of Shakespearean tragedy element to it, but it's so impactful, it's a very powerful film.] Yes. [INT: And perhaps it's the representation of all those young girls who just...] Yes. [INT: I mean, it was like their first idol.] Idol, yeah. Yeah, you know, yeah I think it has to do a lot with that you know. That this was a time in the history of the Chicano people, you know, when they first had this idol. You know? And how it was taken away. And I mean it's repeated over and over again, like we can think about Jenni Rivera, you know. Like it keeps on happening and then the question comes up, why aren't there more? Why aren't there more? Why are they so singular? Why are they so alone, you know, in their existence? To 80:00me, to me, you know? And that's something that I want to bring up, you know, that why aren't there more representations of Chicanos, of people of color in all the media, because we are here. You know? I don't know, maybe. Does it make sense to you? [INT: Oh yeah, yeah. Absolutely.] Yeah. [INT: From your perspective, what was the general reception to the..] The Selena film? Oh people liked it a lot, yeah, yeah. Because they love Selena, yeah, yeah. But you know, also the film comes with a story that it tells, and like I say, it's a tragedy. It's not like THE DEVIL NEVER SLEEPS, there's nothing that's been crafted in this other way, a complex and expensive way [LAUGH] you know? It's a cheaper version of [LAUGH] the documentary.

01:20:42:12

INT: What was it like dealing with her father? I mean, was he a willing subject? Or was he kind of reticent? And what did he think about the final product?

LP: Oh, dealing with the father would have made a better film. [LAUGH] The father was really amazing. He was a very incredibly charismatic and manipulative 82:00man. You know? And he wanted me to make it because it would be more publicity for him, you know, to continue with his business things with Selena. But he wanted me to tell the story that he wanted. And I couldn't, so there were moments when we would gather together and he would say, "You must cut this out," and, "You must put that in." And I won't say what I would cut out or put in, and I said, "No, no. I can't do that, because that would be unethical." And he said, "But who would know? It's only you and me in this office." [LAUGH] [INT: Wow.] You know, and so you know, it was really interesting. And he was interesting, and he was a Shakespearean character. You know? [INT: That's so weird.] I'm sure it happens a lot. [LAUGH] [INT: I'm sure it does too, but just I guess because of this particular set of circumstances, it's his daughter.] I know. [INT: And she's dead.] I know. [INT: And he's partially responsible.] Right, and he felt the responsibility. But he wanted to make light of it, but you know, and I wanted to say to him, you know, "You should have watched your daughter, you 83:00should have done this, you should of," but I couldn't. You know? It was so sad. At the same time it was so sad. So sad. The mother was so sad that she could never even talk to me. Or hardly look at me. She was like grieving and this had been you know, some time. Yeah. It was, mother suffered so much.

01:23:11:15

INT: I feel like SENORITA EXTRAVIADA which came out in I think 2001, is very much a continuation on the same themes that you'd been exploring.

LP: Yes. [INT: Let's start with how you got inspired to do that film.] Okay. You 84:00know, you make me kind of think about some themes that are always present in my work. There's multiple themes. And one of the things that for me has a lot to do with what I need to say in film, because there's a need for me to say certain things. And one of them is about injustice. You know, like gross injustices where something can be done, that we can help. And this was one of them. I read a very small article in the newspaper, in a Mexican newspaper because I'm always reading, I read newspapers from all over. I'm a documentary filmmaker [LAUGH] right? So you're always like, you know, looking out for everything. But I read newspapers from where I come from, from Chihuahua, and there was a very small article, it was just like about this big, you know. And it was by Esther Chávez Cano, who was... I'll tell you who she was later, but in any case, what the 85:00article said was that 36 girls have gone missing inside Ciudad Juárez. And no one knows what happened to them. Basically. There was you know, more details, but that was the gist of it. And I thought, what? This is so crazy, such a little article. You know? Why don't they talk about it more? What's wrong? So I started doing a lot of research. And that's when I found out you know, what had been happening. That there were these disappearing girls, and they were found dead later on. And the writer had been Esther Chávez Cano, who was the first 86:00woman who was a journalist, and started counting the girls as they disappeared. She kept the count. She's died since, and it's been 20 years. And the counting continues. [INT: Really?] Continues. You know, there has been thousands of girls who have been murdered in Ciudad Juárez. And this happens every month. And still happens. So, I mean, this is right now the present, but when I started the film in 1999, around '98, you know, it was a very mysterious thing. And there were moments when they would blame different people. There was an Egyptian man who had worked in the maquiladoras; he was blamed for the disappearances.

01:26:21:04

LP: So not only, some of my films have these thematic things, they also have to have a cinematic quality to them. And the cinematic quality is that it's a mystery. You know? It's an incredible mystery. And that attracts me, to making a film. You know, even though it deals with all these multiple things. So that's 87:00what attracted me to it. [INT: So how did you start with that one? Because that involved a lot of these authorities already, so how did you approach everyone and where did you start?] You're right, you know, here I go again to Chihuahua, right? Where I came from, right? The same place. I went, and I saw Esther Chávez Cano, you know, who was the activist, who was a woman who started, you know, counting. Who started organizing around it. And you know, I asked her, "Esther, you know, where do I go? What do I do?" You know, the way you start any documentary, so she started sending me to the different mothers of the disappeared girls, in the different organizations. And they started telling me their story. And that's how I started, is that the aspect you wanted me to talk 88:00about? [INT: Mm-hmm.] Yep, okay. Yeah. [INT: And how were you received by the other side of the story? I mean, I would imagine that the families were really welcoming of an opportunity to talk about what was happening, and to kind of get it out there more. But what about the authorities?] Right. The authorities as you can see in the film, they were kind of a little bit disdainful, they wanted to ignore it. They didn't want to talk about it. I don't understand to what extent at that moment they were involved in the knowledge of what was happening to the girls. Because now it's almost known, that it has a lot to do with sexual slavery, and kidnapping by you know, the organized crime. You know? The 89:00authorities in Ciudad Juárez are so corrupt, you know, that they just pretend; they feigned ignorance basically. You know? And ineptitude. [INT: You said it's now known that it had more to do with sexual slavery and kidnapping, so it wasn't necessarily the police? 'Cause it comes across in the film, that really, it's the police perpetuating.] It's everybody. It's everybody. You know, imagine all the people that know what happens to these girls, and no one is talking. I mean, what is it? What is the threat that they're living under, that they can't say? It's enormous, so I think it has a lot to do with organized crime, because organized crime, I mean right now if you read the news you understand that you 90:00know, even Felipe Calderón, who was the last president said, "Organized crime is trying to take over the government." So it speaks volumes of you know, whose putting it under the rug. The authorities were no help. You know, no help whatsoever. And on the contrary, they would send us to the wrong places, so basically what we did, we did our own investigation. I had a wonderful you know, at that time student, Gemma Cubero, who was my partner in the investigation. You know, and we found all kinds of things out. And that was the way we did it, we did it through the mothers, we did it through the you know, references the mothers would give us, and we would you know, follow that through. But 91:00ultimately there was one moment when someone said to me, "You know, whatever you do, whatever you do, you can say anything you want, but never mention a name. Because the minute you mention a name, you'll be dead." [INT: Wow. I was about to ask you if you ever felt unsafe?] Oh, I mean I had been threatened. I mean, 92:00this was the most unsafe film I've ever made in my life. It was very frightening. You know? We were followed, you know, we were spied upon, here. [INT: Really?] Yes, here. You know, so it was terrible. I mean, I got like really bad high blood pressure after I finished, because I was just so terrified for so long. But if I'm terrified, and I'm just a filmmaker, imagine how those poor girls felt. Yeah. No, I think that was really the most dangerous film I've ever made. [INT: Did you ever have a time where you considered putting it down? Or did you always feel-] No. No, no. No, it had to be finished and I was scared, but I was threatened and scared, but Esther said to me, I said, "Esther I've been threatened, you know?" And she says, "We all have been threatened!" [LAUGH] [INT: Yeah, but when it's your first time it's like-] I'm a virgin, right? "I've never been threatened."

01:32:37:23

INT: I wonder about, well the film has a quality of being a requiem.

LP: Yes. [INT: And I read a couple articles that also use that same word.] Yes. 93:00[INT: And I just wondered if that was your intention, and did you choose music with that in mind? 'Cause the music is very powerful and very effective.] Yeah. [INT: Can you talk about that a little bit?] Yes, yes. I think that it was meant to be a requiem, and that's why we used that music and I love that music to begin with. And also I felt that there was something that was so important about this film, that I could not ever show a dead body of a girl, and the things that were done to those girls. It's so traumatizing, and horrible and I only think about the relatives and looking at a body like that, that used to be their loved one, would be such an abusive thing to do. That we said, "We can't ever use that." You know? We kind of, Vivien and I, because you know, it was at the end, 94:00the editing is what takes the longest and the crafting of the film. We said, you know the girls, Vivien said, "No, no." I mean, this sounds a little hippie-ish, but I'm gonna say it anyway. [LAUGH] You know, Vivien said, "I feel like," at that moment there were 200 girls that had been counted dead, she said, "I feel like those 200 girls are behind us, and they're editing with us, and they're guiding us. So let's just follow them." [INT: Wow. That gives me chills.] Yes, but it was that powerful. It was that powerful and that wonderful, and we said, "Yes, the girls are with us and we have to represent them right. We have to do the thing right, that is right." We can't, like now you see sometimes some things about Juárez and the big deal is like the bodies are all bloodied and you know. This kind of desecration of the human body, I think effects the 95:00viewers. And if we elevate it to this level of, we are remembering you, this is your requiem. You were a loved person, and your mother is proud to be able to see this film, and say, "That was about my daughter," without feeling bad, you know? That was important. That was very important. [INT: Yeah.] [LAUGH] [INT: No, just as a mother of two daughters, it's incredibly hard to absorb.] Yeah. [INT: The gravity of what was happening, or what still happens.] That's right. It is, it's very, very hard. Yeah, I understand you. There's a lot of evil that we don't see. Real evil, not movie evil. [INT: Right.] You know? And it's good 96:00to teach the girls to be able to see where it's at. [INT: Mm-hmm. And similar to LAS MADRES, here we had families and mothers.] Yes, yes. [INT: And sisters standing up and trying to be heard and find out what happened to their loved ones.] Mm-hmm. [INT: So there's definitely that connection.] That's right. That's right. Yeah, it has that similarity. It's like the struggle and this disrespect for human rights that exists in Latin America, you know? It's all over Latin America, you know, in Brazil it was the same thing during the dictatorship. In Bolivia, everywhere, you know? In the '70s and I'm bringing this up because it's also now, you know? Incredible disregard for human rights. And we need to pay attention to that.

01:36:51:10

INT: I couldn't help kind of feeling a sense of the helplessness that some of the families must have been feeling.

LP: Yeah. [INT: And I wondered what that was like for you when you were making the film?] I think what... helplessness was one of them, but I was doing something active, that made me feel like perhaps it could bring about some change, that I had hope. They didn't have hope. What I had was anger, more than anything. I was so angry. You know, it brought up all this anger towards the authorities for not doing a good job, for not finding out what's happening to these girls. Yeah. [INT: Yeah, and what would you say is that overarching statement about the state, and sort of the patriarchal...] Right, you know, 98:00yeah. I you know, I'm kind of speechless about it, because I don't even know what to say. This is the state allowing these things to happen, right? And they're men basically, I think, I'm sure there's women involved. Men who are allowed to do this, and have been allowed to do this in Mexico, for forever. And it's just overlooked, because it's men and it's money. You know, and the state is responsible. The state is responsible, the state has to answer to all those women, to all you know, the people of you know, the families of the dead. And they're ignoring it. And this country is ignoring it. This country is ignoring 99:00it, nobody talks about it, nobody cares about it. Nobody cares about poor brown women, that's the bottom line. You know? And it's a culturally ingrained disrespect for women that Mexicans have. [INT: But where does that originate?] You know, it's like a friend of mine said, "It doesn't matter where it came from, just stop it!" [LAUGH] You know? That's the thing, because in a way we want to know where it originates, it's about the struggle for power, it seems to me. I don't know. But you know, the thing is, no, you can't do it. You're just not gonna do it. You're stronger, you know, you can do this and you can do that, instead of destroying them. You know, cherish them and protect them. But you 100:00know, it's so animalistic. [INT: It is, it definitely is.] Don't you think? [INT: Yeah.]

01:39:58:05

INT: So do you feel like your perspective as a woman and as a Chicana is like front and center for all your filmmaking?

LP: Mm no, I think there are my interests, but I think basically at the center is an artist, you know? That's who I feel. An artist that's concerned about you know, Chicanos, that's about human rights, that's concerned about women, children, you know, and men too. I'm concerned about all of it. You know? I went to catholic school. [LAUGH] And you know, catholic school really does, they 101:00teach you some compassion. You know, somehow it got into my brain, and you know, that's my struggle. You know? But there's very many branches of interest. I couldn't say that I'm one particular thing, it's multifaceted identity. [LAUGH]

01:41:08:13

INT: How do you define documentary?

LP: You know, I think it's an investigation into a truth, the truth of something. You know, not necessarily, it's not always like the pristine truth, or the ultimate truth. But it's a search for the truth, that's how I think of 102:00documentary. In terms of its form, I think that it could be you know, almost anything. Yeah. [INT: How much or how little or should it be defined at all, the perspective of the filmmaker? Like, you know.] The subjectivity you mean? [INT: Yeah.] Yeah. I think we can't get away from subjectivity at all. You know, we are the creators of this work, so we're always kind of expressing our subjectivity. We can try to hide it and pretend that it's not there, but I think it's only a pretense. In reality it's always there, whether it's with a very big 103:00voice or just very subtle, yeah. You know, I think the only films that have influenced me greatly have been kind of after the fact. Some of the young people that have made some wonderful films, with a lot of creativity and a lot of involvement that didn't exist in the past. I think that we come from, my generation comes from a tradition of documentary being very state, you know? And it's the younger ones that are reinventing documentary. Yeah. And I love them, you know? They're so many of them, especially in Europe, you know, and Latin America. They're much bolder. [INT: Really?] Yeah, they're not bound by these notions of you know, cinéma vérité, or you know, all these other movements. 104:00No, you know, in fact they, in Barcelona, they teach creative documentary. And in Latin America, in Columbia, and in Argentina, it's called creative documentary; that means that you really you know, created with some other elements and what you're constrained with here in the US. I think we look towards the pioneers of documentary with great reverence, you know? Which is fine, and I think that's good. But it's also good to get away from it. [INT: That's interesting.] Why do you think? [INT: Just the creative documentary in other countries, because it's I think here, people would call it like, experimental/documentary.] Right. [INT: And why does it have to be defined like that?] Right. Yeah.

01:44:39:07

INT: Are there any specific films or filmmakers that were particularly important 105:00to you earlier on in your career?

LP: There's so many of them. So many. So many great filmmakers. You know, and not necessarily documentarians. You know, experimental filmmakers, people like Buñuel, like you know, yeah. Think about Buñuel, I mean talk about experimental. You know? [LAUGH] You know, many, many, many; maybe too many to mention. I mean, I always find some virtues with every film, you know, and someone is always trying something different. And I allow those influences to come through me you know? And it isn't like I follow one or two or three, it's 106:00like I see, you know, I see the defects and I see the virtues of a lot of them. [INT: Are there any current filmmakers that you most admire?] I just saw a film that I, the cinematography I loved so much. And it's actually up for an Academy Award, it's called BLUE IS THE... you know what I'm saying? [INT: I do, and I don't remember the name of it.] BLUE IS THE BEST COLOR or the loveliest color, or something. It's some place over there. It's yeah. I thought that was like really amazing camera work, and amazing acting. You know, aside from other things that it has, but those are the things that really struck me, and the directing. [INT: Cool, good.]

01:46:24:07

INT: What do you feel are the most important technical skills that a documentarian needs to master?

LP: Oh my God. A documentarian needs to master most of all, dealing with people. That is the greatest skill you can have. For example, myself, I'm terrible technically. Terrible. Don't ask me to do it, you know, because I'll probably do the wrong thing. I think it's about telling stories, and storytelling has to do with personal relations. And that's the number one virtue we have to have, you know. You have it. [INT: [LAUGH] Thank you. What's your point of view on where documentary filmmaking is today, versus when you started working in it?] Oh my God. When I started working on it it was very, very conventional. You know? In looking back at it. You know, and very much rooted in this whole notion of being 108:00objective, you know? Which it's almost impossible now, everybody agrees, now everyone has changed their minds, right? That you cannot be objective when you make a documentary. So I think people have become more experimental, you know, that you're willing to experiment much more, but I don't know that the people that get the films out there or that fund the films are as open to it as the filmmakers. [INT: I think I would agree with that.] Yeah. So they're holding us back in a way, by not being bold enough. By funding things that you know, could be much more beautiful. [INT: Yeah. Talk about some of the technical changes or in filmmaking technology that have occurred from when you started. 'Cause there 109:00have been a lot.] Well let's see, I'll give you an example. More recently, like last year I had a retrospective at New York MOMA. And they wanted to acquire my films, to have in their permanent collection. And we had to go back and create, you know, a copy for them. And we started, you know, with film, you know, real film, 16 millimeter film. And we just moved on from 16 and then I told you that we edited LA OFRENDA in three quarter inch. [LAUGH] And then you know, and then we just moved, kept on moving. When we got to THE DEVIL NEVER SLEEPS it was a mixture of video and 16 millimeter. And then it became SELENA; it was like a mini-DV, right? And then on one of my latest films, is made you know, in total 110:00digital format, you know, a very I don't even know the, you know, the exact digital format, but you know, small little camera. [INT: It's a little chip.] With a little chip. But what I realized is that in order for MOMA to buy all this stuff, they needed to get a stable enough format to keep. And most of the digital is not stable. The only stable stable films were the 16 millimeters films. You know? And I thought, oh wow, that means that a lot of this digital work is not gonna survive. [INT: So what did you do?] No, I mean they took the second best, you know. A beta SP. Isn't that interesting? [INT: Yeah.] And that's an old format. So we've run the gamut, you know, formats. [INT: How about 111:00in the editing side of it?] Oh wow, well the editing, that becomes also problematic. Very problematic for Vivien. You know, you have to always keep up with all the latest programs and how do you do that, you know? You need immense drives, and it just never ends. It's become I think more of a... it's much more expensive than 16. It's become more expensive. It's faster, but also I think 16 gave you a rhythm, because of its limitations. You know, that was very human. And now we've just gone so fast and so, you know, quick. [INT: Yeah. So you and Susana edited LAS MADRES, and then you edited... ] LA OFRENDA. [INT: LA OFRENDA on a flatbed, right?] Yes, yes. [INT: Right. And then were all your later ones 112:00done on, well three quarter inch and then Avid?] Well, we started, LA OFRENDA 113:00was in three quarter inch and then we did the film version you know. And then there's like everything on everything. We've gone the whole gamut. Yeah. I don't know if that answers your question. [INT: No, it does.] What did you want, yeah? It does? Yeah? [INT: Yeah. The changes from sort of a technical side.] Yeah, and it's not easy to go through all that. You know?

01:52:02:19

INT: Tell me a little bit about what you take into consideration when choosing a project, a subject matter?

LP: I think first of all that it needs to tell a story. You know, a story that's compelling or that's interesting and that people are going to like and also a story that will get funded. That's very important. Because you could have a gr-... no, I don't know that you could have a great story and not have it funded, I think a great story is a great story. But that's a great consideration, the funding aspect of it. [INT: Yeah.] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, no I think the most important thing is the story, that you have a good story that also reflects your values. [INT: Walk me through the steps that you take in your preproduction, production, and post, you know, like how much do you know when you're getting ready to go out and shoot, about what you want the final product to be and how much is created in the field, and how much is created in post?] Okay. [INT: You know what I mean?] Yes. [INT: And I know it's different for each project, but just sort of generally.] Right. [INT: I want to get a sense of your 114:00creative process.] Yeah. First of all I ruminate, which is, I don't know that that's a good thing, but I ruminate a lot about a project. I ruminate, I think of all the possibilities. This is the cheap way, right? [LAUGH] It doesn't cost anything, I can ruminate, I can think, I can invent in my head. And then that is the first thing. Then I put it down in a story. Right? And once in a story, then I break it down to where you know, I'm gonna go film. Who I'm gonna get, how I'm gonna get it financed. All that stuff. And I try to stick to the story. You know, unless there's something extraordinary that happens during the filming, then we film that. But basically, I've never been derailed by an occurrence. You know? I mean I've taken detours. But never derailed, where like I've lost my 115:00story. [INT: Do you ever have, or do you have an example of a time when you're out and you're shooting, and it could kind of go in another direction and you really have to, say like, "No, that's not pertinent to the story I'm trying to tell; that's a different story." You know? Do you have any?] Well I can tell you the story of THE DEVIL NEVER SLEEPS, Ofelia. When I ask Ofelia, "You know, we want to do an interview with you," and she says, "No." And you see it in the film. That moment when I'm just like, "Oh my God," I'm crestfallen. She said no, you know? She's just getting her vengeance now on me, and Jose who was my sound man goes, "Well Luli [PH], you know, we gotta [LAUGH]... you gotta-" Or Kyle said to me, it's not in the film, but it's at that moment that it all came back, 116:00that it all happened, it gelled, and they said, "Well you're gonna have to take over. You're gonna have to be in the film now, even though you don't want to." So that's a moment when it switched. You know? But the story continued on being the same, it's just that we didn't have that character, so we had to grab another one. [INT: Right, okay. So then when you're done shooting, and you haven't been derailed.] Right. [INT: And you come back and you start looking at all your footage, what's that like for you?] Oh it's wonderful, you know, it's a great moment, because I'm looking at it with new eyes, with Vivien's eyes. You know? We have all the transcripts, you know, we look through it, you know, she's a very positive person, which is wonderful. She's never gonna say, "Oh that's 117:00really awful," you know? "Oh this is great, oh we can put it with that," you know, she's very open. And it's made in heaven, it's a marriage made in heaven with Vivien, you know? That is another very, very exciting moment, but it's not as physically trying as the filming, you know? It's all there, and it's now a matter of elaborating. You know? I don't think that we change directions with that. Like you said, you know, do I get derailed? Not often. I could almost say like, with the exception of this thing, you know, in THE DEVIL NEVER SLEEPS, that's when we changed, but I can't think of it. I kind of really stick to the story. [INT: Yeah, that's good.] Because if I did, you know, it would really, I don't know where I would go. I'm not that disciplined. You know? [INT: But it sounds like you are.] No, I mean if I get derailed, then I'd have to take that 118:00road, and who knows where it would take me, and who knows who would fund me. I mean, you have to consider all these things. Yeah. [INT: Right. So you have your transcripts, and you have your footage. Do you do like a paper cut? Do you have a big board where you're rearranging scenes?] Mm-hmm. [INT: Like how do you map it out?] We do that. We cut you know, all the dialogue, we do a script, and the other thing that we have done in the past, when we worked at Skywalker with THE DEVIL NEVER SLEEPS, we had a room about this big. And we had a still of each shot, the head of each shot. And we put it all around the room. And looked at it. To construct the visual, kind of language. And you know, where we were going. Yeah, it was a long process. [INT: How long were you editing that one?] I don't remember, yeah. But it was a long time. Maybe, you know, almost a year. [INT: Oh really?] Yeah, yeah. [INT: That is a long time.] Yeah. But it was like a piece of lace. You know? [INT: Yeah. That's a great analogy.]

01:58:47:02

INT: Let's talk a little bit about ethics.

LP: Okay. [INT: And you know, crossing the line, or not crossing the line.] Yeah. [INT: Where do you stand on that and when and how has it come into your 120:00work?] Right. [INT: Or to your, you know, your experience in making?] Right. I mean in general you know, I believe in being ethical in making films. And I think that I've followed, you know, that notion. With THE DEVIL NEVER SLEEPS, you know, I felt like I was really like flirting with you know, being unethical. You know, and but the way that I addressed it, is that I talked about it, in the film itself. That it was a dilemma, you know? And I make the audience kind of complicit, you know? And that was one way to kind of expose it and for the audience to know that I was not hiding it, you know? That's how I dealt with it. [INT: And in that case, was it primarily about Ofelia?] Yes. [INT: And recording that conversation?] Yes, yes. Yes. The thing that happened with Ofelia is that, with Ofelia it was very difficult to get her okay about anything. You know? And we did record that conversation without asking her. And then once I recorded the conversation and tried to ask her, there's no way that she was going to give me 121:00an okay. And I'm in this incredible dilemma that I put myself into for being so... I'm not gonna say. But [LAUGH] you know, it was like, what am I gonna do now? I can't put this on public television, you know? I don't have a release. You know, I don't have a release, what do I do? And I ruminated, [LAUGH] you know, for months about it. And finally I thought, well actually I didn't think about it, it was my assistant, Socorro Aguilar, who said, "Luli, [LAUGH]" she said, "I do voice-overs for films, why don't we do Ofelia's voice-over in that little piece, I'll do my voice, pretending I'm Ofelia, and we'll put it in the 122:00credits at the end?" I'll bet you didn't know that. [INT: Well I saw that in the credits, but I was like, wait a minute; that wasn't Ofelia?] It was, most of it was Ofelia, except for some piece, that was key. I mean, I'm talking to Ofelia, all the time. You know? That's normal. [LAUGH] And it's yes, I had to, I had to do Soco's voice, that's Socorro's voice. [INT: Which spot?] At the end. Yeah? [INT: Okay. I'll have to look at it again.] Yeah. No, you know what I have, that would be very important, is I have a DVD of her voice doing everything that was recorded, that she did. [INT: Okay.] Yeah. No, I'm sorry. I'm telling you the other thing. The only spot that it is Ofelia, is at the end. You'll hear her 123:00voice, we put her voice in a little bit, so people could, like if I had this conversation, I said, "This is Ofelia's voice." [INT: Okay.] Do you get it? [INT: Yeah, yeah.] But these are all imaginations, [LAUGH] you know, this is all the craziness I had to go through, for not having a release. And then it just stopped me and it froze me and I love the film and people love the film, but you know, there was this big defect, you know? [INT: Well I thought it was a really great way to address it, the way you do in the film, with your voice-over. Or with your narration, about the fact that you were facing this dilemma.] Oh I had to. I had to. Otherwise, all my other work would suffer. I would suffer. You 124:00know? The consequences of my actions. [INT: Have there been other instances of sort of ethical dilemma for you as a filmmaker?] Just with Selena's father, you know. That he didn't want me to put something in that he had said, because he you know, people would be condemning him. That was hard. Those are the two times that it was really, really hard. [INT: How do you handle it with your subjects ahead of time? Do you tell them that they can see a cut before it's done? Or what do you...] No. I never ask for people's approval of the cut. Once they sign their release, just like [LAUGH], it's gone. [INT: Well that's what I thought, but then something about the way you were referencing your conversation with Selena's father, seemed like he saw something and he was saying, "Don't include 125:00that." But it wasn't, it was just in conversation?] Yeah. [INT: Okay.] Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. [INT: Interesting.] We're always so suspect, huh? [LAUGH] [INT: Well you've done, I mean you have selected very... what's the word, I don't know. Not necessarily controversial, but yeah, in a way, the topics are personal and political, and affecting.] Yeah.

02:04:58:06

INT: When we were first talking at the very beginning, you talked about how your father wanted you to be a journalist.

LP: Yeah. [INT: And it made me think about this question here, that I knew was coming later in the interview about. How do you think of your films? Are they a record of a particular time and place? Are they a reportage, are they art? Are they something in between or a little of all of it? You know, I kind of want to hear your thoughts on that.] Yeah. I think about it as a record of a particular time, number one. You know, and also an expression of art, and also an expression of political concerns. That's how, you know a little bit of 126:00everything, like you said. [INT: Yeah, yeah]

02:05:48:08

INT: Can you talk a little more in depth about the relationship between the sound and picture, in your work, and how you marry those, how they work together 127:00and when you're editing?

LP: Sound and picture. You didn't say music. [INT: Oh I mean music as well.] Yeah? [INT: Sound, music, yeah. Soundtrack, whether you know, layering of sounds.] Sound is really important. Very, very important and that's one thing that I've learned from Vivien, you know? She was originally a sound editor, so I mean this is a person who has worked in big films that, where sound is very important. And so she taught me, you know, all about rhythm, sound, tone, you know. Nuance and also the marriage of you know, of the visuals with the sound. And how important it is in silence. Silences. You know, that's also very important. So it's a concert basically, you know, you're visualizing a kind of a concert. If you were to just hear the sound by itself, it would be alive almost without the pictures. But the pictures really add to it. It's very carefully crafted. I can tell you that that's one of the most important things for us. [INT: What do you think about when you see, I mean I can't think of any examples 128:00right now, but like documentaries where the sound really suffers. It's like, whatever the film is about, the topic of the film, it is really powerful and poignant but their sort of production values were really [LAUGH]] Bad? [INT: Yeah, does it like take away from the film for you?] Oh yeah, it does. It does. It's just a carelessness really. You know, or maybe ignorance of not knowing how important the sound is, you know. How it creates one tonality, you know, visually and audio- how do you say it? [INT: Orally?] Orally. I know, right. Yeah, yeah. And yeah, all the elements in filmmaking are so important, and I think that a lot of the success of my work has to do with the carefulness with 129:00which everything is put together. And everything, we're never really in a big hurry. That's important. And also I think it's very limiting for other filmmakers that perhaps don't have the time to do that, to craft it so carefully. [INT: At what point or at what stage in the process do you start working on soundtrack, specifically with music? Do you start pretty early on in the editing process? Or later?] No, I think we look at all the footage. We look at also what the sound that has been recorded, you know, in place. And what is inspiring to me or what is the inspiration that drives me to make this film. Like with THE DEVIL NEVER SLEEPS there's a lot of different, it's a mixture of 130:00sounds and they all came to me when I was either filming or when we were in post-production. You know? It's very open, nothing that's composed from the beginning. [INT: And how is it different to work with a composer versus you know, just making music selections?] I like both things. I like both things a lot, I mean, I love working with Todd Boekelheide, he's just very, very talented and a wonderful composer and very sensitive, and I think the three of us work really well together. But I also like the spontaneity of just choosing random pieces of music that I think might go together, that's the most fun that I have, sometimes with films. You know? Because I mean I was trained as an artist, so I have that impulse, you know, to just like, ah put everything in the pot. You know?

02:10:22:15

INT: Well that was one of the question I was gonna ask, is like, what's the happiest time for you in the life of a project? Is that it? Or is it maybe the first screening of a, I don't know; what might it be for you?

LP: I think it's in the editing room, post-production. At the end of post-production when all the elements come together. When we have, you know, kind of reworked everything and we've woven something that we think is gonna be it. And we look at it and we'll just say, "This is it. It's it, we're done." That's wonderful. That's a wonderful moment. When we say, "We're done." We did everything we were gonna do. [INT: And so who's your first audience? Like who do you first screen it for, for feedback? You haven't locked yet, or you know, you're done, but you're not done, done. [LAUGH]] Yes. We have doubts, you mean. Yeah. If we have doubts, then we would bring someone in that would be able to 132:00understand what we're trying to do, number one. And what we're trying to say, and we would say, "We're trying to say this, and are we saying it?" You know, or not. It depends, I mean I can't say that I have like an audience of you know, experts or non-experts. Somebody sensitive, somebody that has opinions and somebody that's intelligent. And that knows the difference, you know, they don't have to be a filmmaker. [INT: Right, right. Yeah.] Mm hmm. [INT: Is there one film of yours that communicates your point of view, more so than the others?] No, I think they all communicate a certain point of view, a different point of view. Each one of them has a different message, yeah.

02:12:16:19

INT: All right, so how do you deal with the perpetual problem of keeping afloat financially, for a documentary filmmaker?

LP: It's very difficult, I mean and it was more difficult after I got divorced, you know? I had to like, at one point I had to mortgage my house to finish a film and not know if I was gonna make enough money to actually pay for it. But I have been very fortunate in getting grants for most of these films. And also I've taught, you know, and I spoke to students all over the world really, for money. [LAUGH] [INT: How do you like speaking to students and being in front of an audience like that?] I like it, I like it lot. Especially if they know about my work and they have questions and they have suggestions or what have you. I love students, students are the best audience. I love them. [INT: Do you feel like that it's financially harder now to make non-fiction films? Through the 134:00changes that have happened in the last 20 years?] I think so, I mean here in San Francisco there used to be a community of filmmakers, you know? A very strong community and I think that that union of all of us together in this, made it possible to go forward and somehow it has disintegrated. I mean some of us are older and we're no longer, we don't have the energy that we did when we were younger, you know? We don't have the same ties anymore, or share the same films. Yeah, filmmaking has changed radically; it's not a community oriented endeavor anymore. In some way, you know what I'm saying? It's more kind of all over the 135:00place, and there's many types of documentaries and some better than others. But I think it's suffered. You know, I think documentary filmmaking has really suffered. And only some of us get to make them, and people that should be making them are not getting the support to make them. And that's something we should think about, 'cause the younger ones are the future. We're the past. [INT: What would you say to a young documentary filmmaker starting out now? What kind of advice would you give them?] I just would say be bold. Don't be afraid. You know? And you don't need so much money anymore and you can make it. That's what I'd tell them, but just be bold. Don't make the same old documentary. [LAUGH]

02:15:25:13

INT: I wanted to ask you to speak a little bit about how your dyslexia may have influenced your creative path a little bit. 'Cause I think that that could be 136:00kind of inspiring to a lot of people who have dyslexia, and maybe don't know it, or do know it.

LP: Yeah. Well, I think you know, with dyslexia you find out sooner or later that, for me, you know, and for other people, that the language that is most easily accessible to one is visual. You know? And you pursue that and you feel empowered because in a way everything that you couldn't put into the things that 137:00you can't do, you put into this artistic world, and it's very gratifying when you see that there's a facility, finally you can move around and make something, make a statement. And do something meaningful. [INT: Is it empowering?] Oh yeah. Of course, yeah. I mean when I found out that I could make art, I felt like phew, I can relax for a second, you know? I don't have to struggle against all these odds of words and numbers. [INT: Right. That's great, thank you for sharing that piece of it.] Yeah, yeah.

02:17:01:09

INT: What are some of your current projects? Are you working on anything right now?

LP: Yes, I'm working on a very short little film. I've always wanted to make a film about my dreams. So I had a wonderful dream; I have been very sick for 138:00three years, you know, I had cancer. And I had a dream that was, I mean I'm not gonna tell you the dream, but it made me feel, when I woke up it made me feel like I was empowered to go on and that there was something that I was gonna be healed, because of my dream. And I'm making a little animated film, just teeny like probably a minute and a half, of the dream. That it's very exalting at the end, and my nephew-in-law is the animator. He's a computer animator, so he's doing that. And I feel like I'm so happy that I can do it, because I'm talking about you know, real hippie things. [LAUGH] Totally off the wall hippie stuff, 139:00that I've always believed in, and I love. You know? Like light is life, you know? Something like that, almost spiritual. Really, and when you're very ill you realize all these things, so I'm able to say those things. And [LAUGH] this little one minute and a half little animation, I'm gonna say it. But it's a documentary about my dream. [INT: Oh I can't wait to see it. [LAUGH] When will it be done?] In a year, it takes forever! [INT: Well it's particularly interesting that you said you're making a film about your dream because at some point when I was reading articles about your work and watching it, it kept coming up that there's sort of a dreamlike quality to a lot of your work. That 140:00it's very poetic, both visually and in the narration or the voiceover. So those to me, I see those qualities in your work already.] Oh interesting. Yeah. Well you know, I think that a lot of artists see like a visual production as part of a dream life, it's all together and I see that very much, yeah. Yeah, my dreams are very important to me. Extraordinarily important. [INT: Do you write them down?] Yeah, I do. Yeah. [INT: Cool.] [LAUGH] [INT: Are there any places where you feel you see your work emulated?] My? [INT: Your work emulated?] Sometimes I see it with some students, you know, yeah. Yeah. That's sweet, that's very flattering. But you know, they have their own dreams. [LAUGH]

02:20:24:14

INT: So tell me, I want to talk a little bit about the Academy.

LP: Okay. [INT: When did you become a member of the Academy? Do you remember?] When did I become a member? You know, many years ago, I don't remember exactly, I couldn't tell you. Five, seven years ago, something like that. Yeah, yeah. 141:00[INT: And how has that been good for you as a filmmaker? As a person?] Oh no it's wonderful, it's wonderful to get the recognition. Also it's wonderful to be engaged with the Academy in different levels. You know, to be a part of you know, what is driving a whole industry, and to have a voice, that's very important to me. To have a voice in the Academy. And I'm very grateful for that. [INT: Good. That's great have been there any Academy events that have been particularly meaningful or significant for you?] Oh yes, we had an event I think in 2010, in Los Angeles. It was a panel of documentarians and we had a conversation that was, I thought, was really wonderful. [INT: Do you feel like the documentary genre has become better represented within the Academy?] I think there's an attempt to better represent documentarians. I think that 142:00documentarians still are marginalized, you know? And more things can be done but I see that they're doing more things, so it's very encouraging. [INT: Are there any particular things that you would suggest that could be done? I'm just curious.] Yeah, no, no. I mean I wouldn't know what to suggest, I mean I'd have to study it a little bit. But I mean I feel them reaching out, which is great. You know, that never happened before. [INT: Right. Good. What do you see as the Academy's role in film preservation and restoration?] Well if the Academy doesn't save them, you know, doesn't save these films, I don't know who else really could afford to do it. I mean, I'm hoping you know, that the Academy 143:00continues with film preservation. And film history. You know? It behooves them really. I think so. [INT: What are you doing to preserve your own work?] My own work like I told you, is in New York at the Museum of Modern Art, which is great. And some of it is at UC Berkeley, you know, and all my papers and all my films are also at Stanford, your alma mater. [INT: Yay!] Special collections. [INT: Good, that's great.] Yeah. [INT: How would you like to see documentary filmmaking represented in the new Academy museum?] I could only say in a big way. [LAUGH] In a really big way. 'Cause documentary, you know, is not only an 144:00art but it's a historical piece and I think it would be like rightfully represented if it went almost hand-in-hand with fiction.

02:24:00:11

INT: What would you say are the greatest lessons you've learned in your career so far?

LP: Honey, if I told you the truth [LAUGH] [INT: Tell me the truth!] I'm joking. The greatest lessons I learned in my career. You see I've never thought of this. I have to ruminate. [INT: Okay, that's okay. I have more questions.] Yeah? Okay. [INT: If you had to pick one thing, what would you describe as your proudest achievement so far?] You're asking very hard things. [INT: I know.] You know 145:00already. Achievements in my field? In my work? I think I'm just really happy that I've made the films that I've made, because it illuminates the life of people such as myself. I'm happy that I have made subjective films. And that I have followed my instincts, because it's part of the historical presence of Mexican people, Latino people, people of color in this country. And that the more we have of that the better. That's what makes me proud and happy and I hope that young, you know, filmmakers do the same thing. Because we have to see ourselves in film. We have to see ourselves in documentary, we have to see 146:00ourselves everywhere the way we are. You know? We are everywhere, so we should all be together representing, as the teenagers say. [LAUGH] [INT: They do say that. What have been the most difficult or challenging times in your career?] Probably juggling between family and work. Yes, that's the most difficult thing. Yeah. [INT: What are your hopes for the future of the documentary film?] I just hope that it keeps on going, that it keeps on searching for the truth, that it be creative, you know, engaging and touching. [INT: Do you feel like your aspirations as a filmmaker have changed much over the years?] No, they've become 147:00more acute I think, yeah. [INT: Is there anything that you know now that wish you knew when you were first starting out?] Oh yeah, a lot. But I couldn't even, we couldn't even start. You know? [LAUGH] It's everything, right? it's when you're young. I mean you're full of hope and dreams and you know. And then when you're old you're full of knowledge. [LAUGH] [INT: Knowledge and wisdom.] Mm-hmm. [INT: Let's see. Do you have any idea what you would be doing if you weren't a documentarian? A veterinarian?] You know, no because I decided to be a 148:00filmmaker when I was like 21 years old. I don't think I could do anything else. I think I'd be really bad at anything else. [LAUGH]

02:28:00:07

LP: I think probably the greatest lessons that I've ever learned is to be kinder. I'm kind of a ruffian. [INT: Really?] Yeah. Yeah. To be kinder, to be more compassionate and to listen carefully. Those are the greatest lessons. [LAUGH] [INT: Those are good ones. It's surprising because of the types of films you make. Which seem to me to have a tremendous amount of compassion.] I do have compassion, but I'm careless sometimes. I come from the north of Mexico, where Pancho Villa comes from. So we have a manner about us, right? That's very direct 149:00and very not elegant. [LAUGH] So I think that's what I mean by it. Yeah. [INT: Okay, yeah. Was there anything else you'd like to talk about that we missed?] I just want to tell you how I feel about THE DEVIL NEVER SLEEPS and the voice of Ofelia, that it haunts me. [INT: Really?] Yeah, it haunts me, that I never could get you know, her to give me a release and that I had to go through all that, and that that is one of the things that for me is so hard about not only THE DEVIL, but documentary filmmaking and I feel like it's a failure of mine. It's interesting, and when I speak sometimes to students, like for example with John 150:00Ellis [PH] at the school of journalism in Berkeley. I mean we talk about this a lot. You know? [INT: Yeah.] Anyway, so that's it. [INT: That's great, thank you so much.] You're welcome. [LAUGH]

02:29:57:01

END LOURDES PORTILLO ORAL HISTORY -- LOURDES PORTILLO

End Credits