EFRAÍN GUTIÉRREZ Oral History

Public, Translated transcript

00:00:00:00

START, EFRAÍN GUTIÉRREZ ORAL HISTORY -- EFRAÍN GUTIÉRREZ

Opening Credits

00:00:18:16

EG: I was born in San Antonio in 1946 in Texas. My mother was Manuela Bandini, but raised Alvizo [PH]. And she was born in, New Braunfels, Texas. My father was 1:00Efrain Abran Gutierrez, and he was born in Celaya, Guanajuato, Mexico. And my father came down in 1915 from Mexico during the Civil War. He was 10 years old. And you know, interesting story there, but they came el norte to survive, you know, because during the Civil War, there was a lot of things going on in the little town. They were taking away the men. There was hardly any more men left, and adults. And nobody was harvesting anything. They started to go hungry. So the story is that when Pancho Villa showed up to take the reign- and he would take the women. And the men, they would hide them in a cave when he came to raid. And he asked that all the grain and everything be placed before them, and the ganado [PH], which is the cattle. My grandfather supposedly said, "You know I have to talk to Pancho Villa, because, you know, he can't do that. You know, we're going to starve." And they said, "Well, he's going to kill you." He said, "Well, we're going to die anyway." You know? [LAUGHS] So, if he does take everything. So, supposedly he went in and approached Pancho Villa, and told him, 2:00you know, "Look at what you got here. Old people. And, you know, nobody's planting anything. If you take the grain and the few cows that we got, whatever, we're going to starve." Supposedly Pancho Villa looked, turned around, told the searchers, "Let's go," and took off. But that was a sign that my grandfather said, you know, "We can't survive anymore, so we better get out of here. Next time we might not be so lucky." So about 12 families, mostly related, came from Celaya, Guanajuato, Mosqueda's, Guerra's, Hernandez, Gutierrez, Chavoyas [PH]. These were my father's first cousins and uncles and whatever. And they came by horse and wagon, whatever, made it all the way to Laredo, and crossed into Texas in 1915. November the 2nd is when they're registered in the book when they crossed into Texas. And then there was some family over here already in Martindale, which is not too far from here. That's where they came to. My father's family, all of them, came to work in the ranches. Supposedly there was 3:00a lot of ranches by the Germans that owned a lot of ranches. But you know, nobody was doing anything, so they brought all these people, and they started what you call "medias", sharecropping. And that's what most of the Mexicanos that came... My Mom at one time knew just a lot of the families that were all around Martindale, San Marcos. In a way, you know, they more or less came around that time from Mexico. In San Marcos, New Braunfels, all that area. My grandmother, they came from a little town close to Monterrey. She married an 4:00Italian, Bandini, out of Italy. And they came and stayed in New Braunfels, and then eventually bought a little farm in New Braunfels. My grandmother had a little farm in New Braunfels. And then she separated, divorced from my grandfather. The story, but anyway, then she married Alvizo. So my mother was raised by her stepfather, Marcos Alvizo, out of New Braunfels. And then when my Dad came into the area, whatever, he grew up, they ended up getting married. And most of my older brothers were born in Kyle, Texas. My oldest brother, Vino, was in born in New Braunfels. Mauricio, the second one, was born in Kyle, Texas. Blass [PH], the third one, was born in Kyle, Texas. Chris Gutierrez, my third, you know, going down [LAUGHS], fourth brother, was born in Kyle, Texas. And then, in 1946, right after the war, my Dad didn't go, but my older cousins went to Second World War an d stuff. When they came back,there was no jobs or opportunities or whatever, so they moved to San Antonio. And that's where my sister was born in 1944, just before, around the war. And then when my cousins 5:00came back from the war- And I was born in '46 in San Antonio, and then my little brother was born in '48, also in San Antonio. Abraham. He already passed away. And there in San Antonio, I guess when there was no work or whatever, opportunities there, my oldest cousin that had been in Second World War, he's the one started taking people to work up north in 1947, '46, '47. Right after the war, he started taking [LAUGHS] mostly our families. They couldn't find jobs, so we would go like in a caravan to go up north, el norte, to work. And I started going- I thought it was '48, but they corrected me and told me it was '47 when we first started going up there. I just interviewed a cousin of mine, 86-year-old cousin. He told me that it was '47 when we started going up there, when I was one year old. So I grew up going al norte every fall and summer, 6:00let's say, till I was about 15 years old. At the beginning, we started going like around May. We would leave in May and come back in January, but then, later on, when I was about 10 years old, we started going to Michigan to do- we called it 'deshace' [PH], which is basically weeding out and cleaning out the sugar beets. But you use a hoe on the rows. You go down the rows, cutting. Anyway, we started going to Munger, Michigan. So we started going in April. [LAUGHS] So we would leave in April. And we would stay April, May, June, July, August, September. And we would start like in Auburn and then go up to Michigan, and then, you know, Bangor. And then around July, we would go to Traverse City, Michigan to the cherry picking. And then we would go back down to Auburn, around 7:00Fort-Wayne, Auburn, Indiana. Russell Meyer [PH] was the man that used to contract to other people in Auburn, Indiana when we first started going to Auburn, Indiana. And it was a camp, but it was mostly families, but it was a big camp. It had about 15, 20 families in the camp. But like I said, a lot were related. And then we would stay there till about when it got cold, when it started freezing the crops. You know, tomatoes would freeze over, so we couldn't pick no more tomatoes, die out. Then we go to potatoes at the beginning, and then around November, late September, we would start making a trek back to San Antonio, drop off in San Antonio some stuff, and then head back to west Texas. We would go up to Lubbock, Plainview, all the way through Christmas. You know people, we never had Christmas. We never had a Christmas tree. We never celebrated Christmas because we always had it either on the road, or out in west Texas. Or we would come in and... My Christmas was my godmother, you know, she 8:00lived down the street, and they had a big tree and celebrate. So that's where we all celebrated Christmas, with my godmother. But that was in January. So we never really saw, you know, it wasn't like, "What! No Christmas?" Like Charlie Brown. [LAUGHS] I mean, it just never, you know, we just saw pretty lights. That's all I remembered. I loved Christmas because of the pretty lights that we got to see. And then we would go, enroll in school in January, and get out in April. [LAUGHS]

00:08:12:22

EG: I didn't start school, what they called pre-primary [PH] back then. It was called pre-primary. Not pre-K or whatever. It was pre-primary. I started pre-primary when I came back from Indiana. I think I was six years old. And then I went to the first grade. Actually, we stayed that year in Auburn, Indiana the whole year. And my first grade was in Auburn Indiana Central Elementary. They just tore it down this year, in Auburn, Indiana. And then second, third grades, 9:00when I went to H.K. Williams in the Edgewood Independent School District, which you might be familiar with. It was considered one of the poorest, if not the poorest school district in the whole United States. But we lived in a barrio neighborhood. We didn't see much difference because spoke Spanish. Everybody was Mexicano, Chicano, like myself. Half the community were migrants, you know, would leave. It was always obvious when April, May came around. You know, the families started leaving up north. Half the people would leave. But we would get to- wherever we got, we doubled the population. Like in Traverse City, back then, Traverse City was a small town. In Traverse City, Michigan. That was a beautiful place because it was in the summer and we picked cherries there. But Traverse City, Michigan, I think it was like maybe close to less than a 100,000 or something like that. And they would double the population, you know, of the 10:00migrants that were out there. And then the church was overflowed. Back then, a lot of the migrants were very religious, well, you know, going to church a lot. And every Sunday, we had to go church. You'd see all the families sitting. And they were overflowing. [LAUGHS] And then they had dances for us. You had migrants from the valley, migrants from Austin, from Laredo, from San Antonio, and all the little towns. Floresville, you name it. And so you got to see a lot of people that you know, you just saw there in the camps, and then you know, they would to Alice [PH] or whatever, and you wouldn't see them again until the following year. And then, like I said, around when I was about eight years old, we stopped going to Russell Meyer, to the camp. My Dad became friends with this farmer, Raymond Breckway [PH], in Woodburn, Indiana. So we started going, just our family. We were six boys and my father, so it was seven, and my Mom. So more 11:00or less we ran the whole farm for him. You know, he planted tomatoes. It was 200 acres I think, farm. And we were the ones that handled it, brought some help sometimes when we needed, during peak season or something. And that was our home. We would go work other places, or whatever. We would stay there. When we go to Traverse City, Michigan, we would, you know, that was our home base in Woodburn, Indiana. We became real good friends with the son. Last time I saw him was about 10 years ago that I went to visit Margaret. The man passed away, Raymond. But she was still alive. And the kids that I grew up, were still there. Neil and John, who were the owner's sons. But the thing that I bring up a lot, because we talk about that brings the memories, is I tell people, "Texas was a 12:00very racist... I think it's the most racist state that I've ever been in." And I've been to a lot of states. But I'm talking about in the time. I'm talking about the way when we grew up in the '40s and the '50s, as a kid seeing, not understanding, but you know. I got to see all the signs. No Mexicans or dogs allowed. When we would leave in a caravan, we had to get gas. We would leave- Round Rock was a- Because we wouldn't come from San Antonio, with other people come San Antonio, and stop in Round Rock. And then the people from San Marcos, and you know, New Braunfels. They were also going- You know, that's where we would get together. And then from there, we would take off all together in like a caravan. We would stop in New Braunfels because my grandmother had a little farm in New Braunfels, and wait when the whole caravan would pass by. And then we would say our goodbyes and join the caravan. And we would usually take off at 13:00night, as soon as it dark. And the reason we would take- We would take gas and food and everything because if we would stop in any little town or anywhere, going east through east Texas, going from Round Rock, we'd go through Arkansas, through Little Rock to get up to Missouri, and then up to Indiana. They wouldn't even serve us food. And not only that. If you had problems with the car, you know, sometimes they wouldn't even help you with the car, you know. You would send somebody and park the whole caravan. And then you'd send somebody in a car to go look for help or whatever. If you wanted to go eat, you had to get you know, two or three people to go, because you know, they didn't want to serve us. And sometimes, like I say, we would have to take gas, because you know... You dreaded getting [LAUGH] having to have any problems between here and Arkansas. We didn't stop until the following day when we got into Arkansas. And that's where we had our first feast kind of, big meal. We would buy- The blacks used to 14:00sell barbecue alongside of the road. So that's what we'd buy. Then have a big camp picnic in there, and get our first rest, and then take off. And eventually we'd get to Auburn.[LAUGHS] But the thing that I'm saying, but once we got past Missouri, the white people were very different to the white people over here in Texas. I mean, here it was always like there was anger, or there was, you know-- If we went downtown, you know, we went let's say to the north side, the white people were suspicious, or you know. There was not like a friendly, "Hey, welcome," kind of thing. But when we got to past Missouri, like I'm telling- Missouri, Illinois, Indiana. Especially Indiana, Michigan. It seemed like the white people were friendly, were happy to see us. Like I said, some of my older cousins married you know, some white girls when you know, they were up there. I'm going to another big reunion in Auburn, Indiana on the 23rd in July with what I call my white family, because you know, my cousin married, but they all 15:00married white people up there. They laugh. Nobody believes they're Mexicans [LAUGHS] because... As long as you know, it's all that matters. And I went to school in Defiance, Ohio, in the third grade, you know. I never, you know, like I said, I got along real good with the kids. And you know, I never felt the way I felt in Texas. Even with the teachers, you know. I remember they were real helpful up there. And you know, some of the teachers were not too nice, you know. [LAUGHS] And especially when I went to school back in the '50s. So you know, that stayed in my head. And then I went to not a Catholic school, but the Catholic Church provided schooling for us when we were in Munger, Michigan. And that was about the fourth grade or something like that, you know. We would go to a Catholic- They would pick us up and take us there. So you know, it was, the 16:00schooling kind of was just haphazard wherever we got it. But my mother taught me how to read and write Spanish before I went to school. I mean, I was five years old and I could read Spanish. It's just that I couldn't speak English, but I wasn't too scared when I stayed in the first grade in Auburn, Indiana, because they were surprised that I could understand. But I didn't know the English, [LAUGHS] but I could read in Spanish and I couldn't write, but I could read in Spanish back then. Because my Mom you know, taught us at home. The schooling, I was never comfortable. So I don't think I ever really absorbed the education the way most people did, because when you went to school, even when you were in... When we came back from up north, and we came back to San Antonio, in the barrio in January, we were like the special ed [LAUGHS] students, the migrant kids, you know. The other Chicanos, the same Mexican-Americans, you know, it's all 17:00Chicanos in the school in Edgewood. But the ones that were there, they were like the middle class because they didn't have to go, the migrants. And they kind of looked down on the migrants. And then a lot of us were older because, not only because you know, we were dumb, but because we didn't have enough school. So we'd have to come back. And a lot of us didn't get enough school, didn't pass. So they had to retain us. Back then they would retain you. They didn't just pass you automatic. So they would retain you. So sometimes you had kids that were two, three years older in a... Like you might have somebody that's supposed to 12 in the sixth grade. And the guy might be 14 years old, you know. But then they dropped out. A lot of them would drop out. And you know, they had, I remember, the elementary, they would divide the class, you know. Half of it was the A section, which is the kids that were already, had taken- And then the B 18:00section was for all the migrants that came in. And I remember, it was embarrassing because you know, it was kind of a- you know, you didn't want to be a migrant. You didn't want to be you know, tapped as being a migrant, even within your own neighborhood, because- and even though they knew. But I'm saying when you went to school, it was like a stigma that you didn't want to be you know, thought of as a migrant because everybody thought you were poor. Everybody thought you felt sorry for, you're dumb, stupid. And I always made it a point that I would learn as fast as I can to get over to the A side. I mean, for the first two weeks, I was just kind of, didn't want to see the girls or anything. [LAUGHS] I was embarrassed. But I would try to catch up. And as soon as I'd catch up, then they would move it. So it usually took me two weeks. And then I would be in- and I felt a little safer. You know, because again, it was just you know, that I didn't want people to feel bad for me. And I felt that more in the schools. You know, that was interesting that I felt it more in the public schools in San Antonio. But then I went to school, in junior high I went to Snyder, Texas. That was an interesting, going to Snyder. Again, they're all 19:00white people. And they're racist kids. I had got a-- about two, three fights. You know, they even wanted me to join the boxing team there. [LAUGHS] Because I get in fights. But they were rude, you know. They were insulting. And you know, you're getting to an age- And I was a year older because, even though I was skinnier and looked smaller than everybody, I was a year older because I had been, in the third grade, I hadn't gone enough days in school. And anyway, I 20:00didn't come back to Texas, so I had to repeat the third grade. And I had started late, so I was a year early usually. But so I went to Snyder in the seventh grade. And then the eighth grade was the last year that my Dad you know, took us to be migrants. There was only like my sister and my little brother and myself. And we went, and I came back, and I started- Truman Junior High had just opened, junior high in the Edgewood district. The first air-conditioned school in San Antonio. [LAUGHS] Anyway, and that's the first time that I first went year round, in the eighth grade, that I went year round to school. But then, by then, I call it my running scared because now you're a teenager. And now you got the gangs. You got the Menchaca Courts, and you got the Loman [PH]. You got you know, all these barrios, you know. Not gangs, but barrios. And you know, you started you know, with girlfriends you know, not.. I liked girls. [LAUGHS] And we had fun, but you know, I got in trouble because you know... So I dropped out in the eighth grade, because you know, I was getting in a fight almost every week. And I didn't like to fight people, you know, so... My brothers you know, had a reputation, and you know, like I was telling, but I was the runt in the family. My brothers you know, they were older, and they had got in fights, and they had stabbed some guys, everything. And I'm going with the younger kids in- 21:00You know, so I mean, I couldn't even go to the drive-in at the Varsity, and I couldn't get out of the car, because I was already getting jumped on. So I always scared that I was going to get shot. And you know, we used to make those you know, zip guns, you know, 122. Carried a zip gun, you know. I went to school with- We made our own brass knuckles, you know, because... In my neighborhood, there were like six of us, seven of us, that went to Truman. And the kids from the Courts, they were the projects. There were like about 20 of them. So we were outnumbered. And I was the one that they always hated. I was the one that they were picking on. I was like being bullied a lot. So I tell, you know, those are my years of running scared. And I went to ninth grade to Truman because that's before they were building Kennedy. And so I had to go to Truman. And then I went to Edgewood. So by the time I got to Edgewood, then things seemed a little bit 22:00better after the tenth grade. I got to meet other friends in las colonias. And my cousins, they were going to Edgewood High School. So you know, it became a little bit better the last two years in high school. But at the beginning, you know, it was just not right. So I graduated from Edgewood in 1966.

00:22:08:01

INT: So it sounds like you were pretty much on time graduating from high school, even though you were kind of traveling all over.

EG: Yeah, no, because like I said, we stopped going after the eighth grade. [INT: Yeah. So you could catch up.] Eighth grade. Yeah. So I kind of was able to catch up. I was never a good student. You know, I went from... Like I said, I had A, B, C, D, E- you name it, you know. But and you know, I was smart. I mean, I knew I wasn't dumb. But you know, I missed a lot of school, you know, I played a lot of- with my friends, and didn't do my homework, didn't turn in my homework. So whenever I was going to fail, I knew that all I had to do at the end was pass you know, the final test and it would bring my grade average up, you know. You know, I'd have A's and then I would drop down. And then I'd bring 23:00it up to a B, whatever. So when I graduated, I had the air force, the navy, the... just about every service came knocking on my door, wanting me to join. And they offered OCS. I said, you know, no, you know. I think they had IQs that they, kept IQs back then or something. And they told me that you had to be like 120 or something to be OCS, officer's cadet school and I qualified for it. But I said, "No, I don't want to be in the military. I don't even know what I want to do, but I don't want to be in the military." So I ignored it, and then I was going to join the army. Then I said, but I didn't want to join. And they didn't prepare for college or anything. Like, when I was in high school, they tried to put me in auto mechanics. You know, like forced me into it twice. And I said, "I don't want to be a mechanic." Took me out, put in the print shop. "I don't want to be in the print shop." What do you want to be? "Well, I don't know. Maybe go to school. I don't know." They didn't think I was- they saw me as one of the 24:00troublemakers, I guess, or whatever. So they didn't pay much attention. So there was one lady, Mrs. Jones. And she was the typing teacher. So I took typing. [LAUGHS] You know, I was the only boy. I liked it. I was the only guy and all the girls and everything typing. But I took typing instead of the shops and stuff. And she's the one that started, you know. And then I had gotten into trouble and the vice-principal- we called him Chabela. Isabel. I don't know if you ever heard- anyway, he was the vice-principal at Edgewood. And he kind of took me in his wing late in my junior year, because that's when my little brother had died. And I went through some bad problems. So I started working at the office you know, also. And that kind of settled me down, got me in a... Interesting enough, I worked with Judge Prado, who is a federal judge. [LAUGHS] I always tell, "We worked together." He's a federal judge now. But anyway, good things do come out of there. Edgewood was interesting because Edgewood, we were 25:00like the dance school. That's where everybody went to the canteen dances you know, from everywhere in San Antonio. That's where Sonny and the Sunglows you know, started playing in the '50s. So we had a lot you know, a lot of... That's where I met my friend Alex, the guy I made my first movie about, Alex Ayala. We became pretty good friends. So I never became part of the academic, the people going to college. I never thought I was going to go to school. So I was looking more at just trying to survive. We didn't really know you know, what was going on. We knew that the civil rights was starting to you know, come up. And we had, Edgewood had like 30 percent blacks, but we didn't really mingle that, you know. They were still separated, you know, from us. Even though we had a lot of 26:00friends in there, you know, and things. But you know, we didn't really- Like we see now in the schools, you know. It was the blacks are here. We had like what? Six whites [LAUGHS] in Edgewood, you know. Charles Wilburn was my friend. But other than that, you know, there was not that many white people. It was mostly Mexicanos. And at Edgewood, it was about 25, something percent at that time. But after that, when we graduated, everybody started getting married and going to school and stuff. So I enrolled at St. Philip's. And I met this black, Williams, Mr. Williams, a professor there. And he's the one that encouraged me to go to school, because I just- I don't know why I showed up at St. Philip's. I made an application. So when they drafted me to join the army, they told me, "What do you want to do? You passed and everything." So they drafted me. And if you go Fort Polk, get off the bus, or- And I tell him, "Well, I signed up for the school." He said, "Well, oh, if you want to, you can go to school. You can... Where do you want to go?" I'm [not?] going to school. [LAUGHS] So I went to St. Philip. And then after that, I dropped out and I got married, had my first 27:00daughter. And then they drafted me again, because I dropped out. But I had my daughter. So then I was deferred again. So I didn't get to go to, drafted back then in Vietnam like my cousins and my friends did. And I'm glad I didn't because I didn't want to go. You know, my cousins all gave me bad reports about what was going on up there and stuff like that. I had a cousin, you know, got blown up over there in a tank. And then, so. You know, Vietnam was a, you know, pretty stressful at that time. Even if you weren't in it, you know. Your friends that were in, your family that was in it. So you know, that was kind of a thing that was scary, but at the same, we didn't understand. We had no control over. So I didn't go. And I went to school all the way till '69 here, I mean, on and off at St. Philip.

00:27:37:02

EG: And then I went up to Los Angeles because everybody told me I should be an actor. I should be an actor, you know, so... [LAUGHS] Without any training, you know, I thought I'd go become a Hollywood movie star. [LAUGHS] [INT: But before 28:00that you had never had any, you'd never acted in any plays in school or anything?] Well I had... not really, Well I did. In junior high, they made me be Joseph, and you know. And then in high school, I did the senior play, you know. They made, you know- I remember the- I forget the lady, the English teacher didn't want me to be in the play because you know, language arts was not my best subject. [LAUGHS] So the director, I forgot her name, the director, the you know, teacher in the play said, "No, you know. He's going to be in it." But the language arts teacher tried to get me out because my grades weren't good enough for her, especially in language arts. So anyway, I got to do the senior play, but not because I auditioned, but because they put me out. And then you know, another little... And I then I joined the drama department for two weeks, but I joined it again because of a girl that I liked. [INT: At Edgewood or St. Philip's?] At Edgewood. In St. Philip's, they put me in the choir. I didn't know how to sing. [LAUGHS] But they needed some people up there. And then I 29:00participated in the theater, you know, in the backgrounds you know, with the- We did... At St. Philip's we did a- I think a little scene or something, but I'm saying I was more interested in the stage, and what they were doing at that particular time. But since there weren't that many Mexicanos at St. Philip's at that time, you know, they would try to recruit us to participate. So I stayed in the choir. I said, "I'm not a singer." And the lady was trying to make me a singer in there, you know, but I couldn't even... And then in the drama department, you know, I did participate, but not you know, really taking acting seriously. To me it was more just to hang around kind of thing. So when they...

INT: So how did you get the idea to go to Los Angeles and study acting?

EG: Well, I have an aunt that lived up there, and I had visited up there with Alex, and I had- You know, we traveled down there after we graduated from high school in '67. I guess we went the following year, we went, we drove up there, stayed, looked for work up there. And when I was up there, you know, some people started you know, saying, "You know, you should try out." So but I didn't know anything about AIDS. I didn't know anything- As a matter of fact, you know, some people would try to get me into X-rated movies. You know, it was all kinds of- 30:00You would see in the paper you know, that they wanted actors. And you would go, and it was just a game, you know. They wanted just to use you, whatever. I mean, they weren't serious. So when I enrolled at East Los Angeles College, ELAC, I was there in '70, '71. That's when I took theater arts. And there I met some students that were more serious about acting. And then they invited me to go check out Nosotros, which was started by Ricardo Montalbán. And it was kind of like this, you know. They had a studio. It was a television studio in Studio 28 or something. Anyway, and basically Ricardo was just the founder. I mean, he 31:00wasn't teaching or anything like that. But he made it a point that everybody that went there got a good agent. And that's one thing that he did get for us. And then he would bring you know, very good- I didn't know who they were at the time, but supposedly they were very good professors. And you know, drama instructors. Because we would have these special people come in and you know, give us some theater training, you know. Well, you know, different tips and different things to do. And then he got us an agent. I got Carlos Alvarado. Carlos Alvarado was the number one agent in California. He had an office right there on Sunset Strip. Carlos Alvarado was the agent for most of the Chicanos and Latinos, especially at the time. And like I said, I got him only because Ricardo Montalbán recommended all of us. But he liked me. He liked me because 32:00yo hablaba Español. Casi todos de California no hablaban Español. So when he met me, he enjoyed when I would visit the office. I forget where he was from. I got to read a book. I think he wrote a book. I think there's a book about, he wrote or something. That's what they told me. But anyway, Carlos was the, you know... And when I would go in his little office in Sunset, you know, he would just- And he would tell me that was one of the reasons. And he encouraged me to stay. And he almost got me a Brylcreem commercial I think. I remember I went for the third call or something. They liked my teeth because they were very white, but I guess they didn't like it because they were spaced out or something. [LAUGHS] It was a Brylcreem commercial. And that was the closest thing I got to, you know, that was going to pay good money. And then he got me to go into... You know, I did some little bit parts in, I think, Adam 12, but just nothing worth mentioning. But one of the good things that he did get me was an audition with- John Wayne was doing his last movie, American Cowboy. [INT: The Cowboys.] The Cowboys or something. I never really seen the parts of it. Anyway, they did that 33:00interview at 20th Century. And I went to Agdon [PH] you know, again, [LAUGHS] I was not, like I said, I shouldn't even have been out there. But anyway, I went there and when I went to the audition, the casting director liked me. You know, and he said, "You know, I want you to come back and bring us a, like a two-minute clip, you know, not a clip, a reading." So I went and I told my professor at ELAC. And this is kind of, and I don't mean to be, but the guy wasn't looking out for me. [LAUGHS] But anyway, I told him, "Hey, I need to get a reading and I'm going to 20th Century next week or whatever. And you know, what do I do? What do I read? You know, two minutes." He said, "Well, Efrain." He explained what I needed to do. And he said, "But you know what? I'm going to get..." There was this pretty little girl, a beautiful white girl. You know, she was one of those girls that comes out in every play. And you know, good enough I guess for that, but not good enough to make it. And she'd been trying to get auditions you know, to get in... So when they found out that I was going in to 34:0020th Century. Oh, well. So he says... It dawned on me later that what he used was, "Hey, this is an opportunity to get her [Ishown?]." So he gave me this two-minutes thing about, what is the name of that... Elizabeth Taylor. Anyway... [LAUGHS] [INT: It was a scene from a film?] It was a scene from the film, but I played it with a western accent. So he had me trying to be an accent, a western accent, you know, trying to talk like a cowboy, and something like that. So anyway, and I'm doing what he's telling me, you know. And that's not what they were calling me for, but anyway. But it's a western. It's John Wayne. But the little girl had a really nice part. So we went there and-- I tell my wife, she said, the only reason I didn't mind then because she was a pretty girl and we had a kissing scene in there. So I liked getting into the kissing parts. [LAUGHS] I didn't know what the hell I was doing. But anyway, we went back to 35:00you know... I remember we started and the casting director said, "Oh, Efrain." [LAUGHS] They stopped us. And they said, "Look, we don't... I don't know, but we like you. We want you to be you. We don't want- Come back and bring a reading, something else, but bring yourself. Just give us a two-minute reading. And we just- The director's going to be here, whatever." You know, they liked me according to Carlos Alvarados. He was pretty sure I was going to get that... Anyway. So I went back and so I said, "Oh man, I screwed up that time." So this 36:00time, I took "Yo soy Joaquin." I don't know if you've ever- [INT: Yeah, yeah, yeah.] It's a powerful, strong, you know, "I am Joaquin." So I read that piece and you know, everybody was- Then all of a sudden the director goes, "Mr., oh, Efrain. Calm down. You're too strong, you know." I said, "Well, you wanted something. Here it is. And this is really me now." They said, "Well, no What we want is we want somebody you know, more passive. You're... Mexicans don't act like that." Boy, that hurt me. They said the wrong thing. I said, "What do you mean Mexicans don't act like that?" He says, "No, no. Well, you know, we want somebody that..." And I'd grown up seeing Pedro Gonzalez Gonzalez. And I don't mean no disrespect to the man, but he grew up being John Wayne's sidekick, you know. And he was, never really got any other good parts or anything, you know. He was always the butt of the joke of the... So I remember distinctly turning around and saying, "You know what? What you all are looking for is a younger 37:00version of Pedro Gonzalez Gonzalez. And I'm sorry, but I'm not it." So I walked out. And of course, somebody else got it. [LAUGHS] And then Carlos got all mad. I said, "You know what?" And around that time, I also met Emilio Delgado, who's with Sesame Street. And he was doing you know, a little theater group in East Los Angeles in a church, in an old little church, a theater there. And so again, students told me about it. So I went to see. And you know, I joined the little group doing Mexican-American, whatever the group was. And then I don't know what. I was there like two, three times. We met like once, every Saturday or Sunday we met. And he, one time he said, "You know what? We're going to go to the San Fernando Valley next time, next week. Be prepared. We're going to stay out all day, whatever." "What are we going to do in San Fernando Valley?" "Well, 38:00we're going to introduce you to some teatros, you know." And I didn't know anything about... "Okay." So we went and where he took us was, you know, we never... The farm workers were working in the fields. Well, I mean, I had nothing to do, I mean, I grew up in the field. "Why the hell am I coming over here? Shit. Coming for... Not my thing, dude." "No, no, Efrain. Look. No. We're going to you know, we're going to look at what they do." So I didn't understand. But then what he was really, and then it wow, it finally dawned on me. When we saw a little- Valdez had a flatbed truck. And it didn't [INAUDIBLE] that time, but there was Teatro Campesino. They were performing and inviting the farm workers to join the union. And to me, that just freaked me out when I realized you know, how powerful a teatro could be. And how, you know, I actually saw people you know, getting out of the fields. And being a migrant myself, and I said, "You know what? That's it! I'm going to form my own teatro. And I'm going to form it in San Antonio."

00:38:52:13

EG: So I came back in '71 to San Antonio. And immediately I put an ad in the paper. Well, first I joined the Teatro del Barrios with George Velasquez. George Velasquez is the brother of William Velasquez, who started the Voter Registration Project. George Velasquez had the Teatro del Barrios, but like I said, I have a big mouth. So eventually he and I clashed. So I said, "You know what? I'll start my own teatro." So you know, I started the Chicano Arts Theater. And then we started it there in a church. And then we went to Kennedy. They let us use the facilities there, the theater more or less, to practice. And then we ended up performing in the first, Juan Corazon [PH]. First play was in- I don't know if it was late '71 or early '72. I'm trying to remember, but it was 40:00right around that time. And we performed a week and we fill out a big, at the Memorial High School. So we weren't good, [LAUGHS] it was funny, but we were trying. And I had like 40 students that were already joining my group. So I said, "You know what? This is nice. But we need a place to perform." And around that time, that's when "Chista" Cantú, who was kind of the, Jesús María Cantú, "Chista" was kind of like, or is like the godfather of the Chicano artists. And especially in San Antonio, all over Texas and even other places, in Mexico and everything. He even worked with Siqueiros. You know, studied a little bit with Siqueiros when he was younger in Mexico. So "Chista" invited me- We had become friends and he had studied... Now, he was the first one that kind of opened or started telling me about you know, the history of the Aztecs and the 41:00Mayas, and you know. The native culture that I had never heard of up to that point. I really didn't know much about it. I said, "Wow, I didn't..." So then he said, "You know what, Efrain? You should come with us. We have this group which is Con Safos." It was a group of artists, mostly painters, artists, from San Antonio. Mel Casas, Rudy Diamond Garcia, who passed away. They're all passed away now. Chista's still alive. And David Gonzalez was still at the Guadalupe. He's the last one that's there. And so I remember when they invited me, I said, "I'm not an artist," but anyway I showed up. And I liked, you know- But I was more- I didn't belong there because these are all you know, artists that I'm beginning to meet. And they're doing great work. [INAUDIBLE] oh man. And then we talked about my, you know, I'm not an artist because I you know, I have a theater and I'm an actor-director, whatever. So but I never felt comfortable with the title, but they said, "You know, you're an artist." "Okay." I said, 42:00"Well, we need somewhere to perform," and that's where the conversation came in. We were close to the Guadalupe, in the back yard of a house. So they said, ,"You know-" Somebody came- It wasn't me. Somebody came up with the idea, "Hey, the Guadalupe's being closed right there. It's been closed for like ten years." And it's right in the heart of you know, the west side in there. And I said, "Wow. What happened?" In the conversation, somebody said, "Would you all perform there? Why didn't you ask?" "Who do we talk to?" I didn't know who to contact or anything. And I wasn't smart enough to do anything like that. But somebody said, "Hey, I can get in touch with the owner." He knew the owner or something. And they did. I don't know who it was, but somebody said, "Hey, Efrain. You can perform if you want to. The only condition is that you have to clean out the theater and you have to provide your own lighting because there's no electricity or nothing. It hasn't been cleaned." I said, "Oh, no. We got some kids. We'll clean it out." So we got a weekend performance. We went in there, and man, I 43:00remember we saw rats so big in there." Because I had the girls, you could hear, every time they screamed you know they saw a big rat or something in there. And I had all these kids from Memorial, Edgewood, Kennedy, and Lanier. There was two 44:00girls from Lanier, or three girls from Lanier. And then there was some students from- Most of them were from Memorial, Edgewood, and Kennedy. But we had some from Lanier. And you know, we cleaned up the place. And then we got, we borrowed extension lighting from the neighbors because there was houses on the sides. And you know, we rigged up some lighting. And we sold out, too, you know, that weekend. I think it was two nights that we performed there. So that's when the idea came. Like, "Oh the Guadalupe. You know, this belongs to the community. We need to take it over." I didn't stick around you know, because right around that time I was looking into making movies. That's when I, I had already started asking questions. When I'd been in California I had asked- First off, I started with... Nosotros. What's his name? [INT: Ricardo Montalbán.] Ricardo Montalbán, you know, when we had an opportunity to speak to him, you know. But we did get an opportunity to speak to him. You know, he was the first- I said, "Mr. Montalbán, why can't we make our own movie? You're large. You're big." "Oh, no. Efrain. The Screen Actor's Guild." Blah blah blah. "But why do we have to depend on Hollywood, man? Why can't we do it ourselves?" "No." And then I met Anthony Quinn. Because when I was in... with the theater in ELAC, he came to talk to us. He was doing, THE MAN IN THE CITY, I think. There was a TV show that he did for a year. THE MAN IN THE CITY. And he was like the mayor or something. It didn't last but one year. But anyway, we got to have sort of like 20 students. And we got, he came over to the school and that's when I got my chance 45:00to talk to him. Same thing, "Mister. Why can't we? I mean, you're a big star, man. Why can't we make our own movie?" I'm not talking about me. I was saying, "Why can't... I want to see us. We tell our own stories. How can you make your movies?" "No, Efrain. Can't. No, can't do it." "Why not, you know?" "No." Okay. Then it stayed in the back of my mind. I came back. And then when I met Luis Valdez in '71 officially, and he was starting the Teatro Campesino- I mean the teatro, El Teatro Nacionale. And he had the second meeting in Costa Mesa. And when he was going to Costa Mesa, you know, we took our teatro to perform over there. And when I saw Luis and his acting, I said, "This is the guy that can do it, man." I said, "Luis, why can't we do our own movie, man? I mean, you got everything." "No, Efrain, you know, tambien." "Oh man. Okay." So that you know, was after I'd done the teatro. But so I came back. We had already been doing the teatro in '71. And Luis, you know, we had, instead of doing a play. I liked him 46:00because he's the one who told me, "Efrain, start doing- You know, maybe you shouldn't be doing a play when you go on tour." Because I had 40 students in San Antonio. But when we would go on tour, they were all high school students, so only about six or seven could go and usually it's only the guys. The boys can go, you know. Most of the parents weren't going to let their 16, 17-year-old girls go with us. But my ex-girlfriend, Josie Faz, who was with me at the time, she and I were like the... I mean, the spons...what is it, the chaperones or whatever. And we took like eight students with us. I think her sister who was at Kennedy, and a girl that was at Lanier, and two girls from Memorial. And we went up to Costa Mesa. And we stayed up there you know, for the week for the festival. And we were bad. [LAUGHS] I mean, when we saw the other teatros, we 47:00felt like oh my god, man, you know. Because here are we doing this play that we were doing with about 20, 30 students. And now we're doing it with seven, you know. I had to do two or three roles and things like that, so it was a big play, so I remember... [INT: And they were doing actos?] Yeah, they were doing actos, si? And this is what got me into actos. And Luis said, "Maybe instead of doing a whole play, think about doing actos. That way you don't have-" And that's when we started, left Juan Corazon alone and we started picking up on actos and doing our own, writing our own. [INT: And writing your own?] Writing our own little skits and... Then I met, when I met Sabino, Sabino became the official writer. But before that, David and I had started doing the little skits that we did. And then we toured up to, in '74, we went to Tenas [PH]. We toured up in the Midwest. We went to Purdue University. We went to Michigan State University. I took again a bunch of kids up there. And we came back on food stamps kind of. [LAUGHS] And the reason I say that is because you know, we got paid in Purdue, 48:00and we got paid in Michigan State, but not that much back then. And we're talking about eight kids. All of us in one van you know, traveling. And so we were in Michigan broke. We ended up in, close to Traverse, not in Traverse City, but close to Michigan because I wanted them to see where I had gone to work in Traverse, since we're here let's go see. And I thought they could pick cherries. I said, "Well, let's go be migrant work- I mean let's go labour in the field, work a couple of, two, three days and we'll get enough money to get back to Texas." Those kids didn't know how to work. [LAUGHS] They were playing around. And I mean, we didn't make any money. But the guy that, you know, the Mexicano that was in charge there or whatever, he realized that, you know, he said, "Efrain, these kids you know, are not going to make it." I said, "No, but I you know, I'm glad they went through the experience." He said, "What do you need?" I said, "Well, we need to get back to Texas and we're broke." He said, "You know what?" He took us somewhere and they gave us some vouchers for gas or something. 49:00And I remember they gave us- I don't know if it was food stamps. They gave us some papers or something that we could use at the grocery store. Because I remember you know, we got in a different name. So that was a problem, that each kid, wow. When we went to the grocery store, each one bought like a whole bag of food. Hey! We're supposed to you know, take our... We got a long ways to go. I mean, you all are spending all the money before we take- but it was funny. But we made it back. And after that I realized that it was too much trouble to be having all these kids, you know. And I mean, they were, sometimes I was like the parents. "Behave! Stop it!" So I said, "This is getting you know, hard for us." So that's it. I said, "You know what? The universities want us to do some Chicano teatro," but I said, "Why don't-" The idea came, let's do a film. And that would be easier. That way I can do a 16 millimeter movie. I can take it to 50:00the universities. I don't need to put up with all these kids. I can just go show the movie and talk about it. And that's the first idea that came. We're going to make a- We didn't know whether it was a documentary film, whatever, but we were going to make something relating to what we wanted to express. And we were going to do it you know, with that purpose in mind, to go to the universities.

00:50:04:00

EG: But '73, '74 because Sabino and I, right away we grew into this, it was almost... That was my, at that time, right hand. We just worked so good together. Most men, I have more respect... I don't think we ever had a disagreement in all the time that we were together. And I always gave him, you know, because he was more relaxed, more calm. And I was the opposite. I was hyperactive, angry, you know, always wanting to- Somebody'd say something, "What the-" You know, or want to fight. Because I remember Carmenta Foya [PH]. You 51:00know Carmenta Foya. Carmenta Foya was over here in '72 at Texas Lutheran and she invited- '71, I'm sorry. No, no. '73. '73. She invited us to go- I have a letter, I remember I still have it. When she invited us to go, or thanking us that we went. I remember, I got there, I thought she was a little student. [LAUGHS] She was such a pretty lady, you know. Anyway, that was our first experience that we had in the college. But see, even though there were a lot of Chicanos, they were questioning us. "What's a Chicano?" "Chicano's just a dirty word." "Yeah, but you know, that's Chicano, that's Chicano." All these kind of things. And I'm on stage. And all these damn people are talking to me. And man. I want to jump on the stage and start you know, because people were being... And I didn't know how to deal with it at that time. And I remember Sabino would just turn and say, "Efrain. What Efrain is trying to say..." blah blah. "Well, okay." So I always, whenever he would see that I would get upset about something, he 52:00could express it better than I could and he could calm. Because I get mad and I want to fight. That's the way I grew up. You know, like my brothers taught me, you know, if you're going to get in a fight put the first punch in so at least you get one in. So I always you know, grew up with that mentality. And Sabino was completely different. And he was the one that had been in Vietnam on two tours, you know, infantry sergeant and everything. Had seen all that. And everybody'd say, I said, "No, I'm not the warrior. He's the warrior. I'm just a loud mouth. I'm the loud piece." [INT: Was he writing actos for you? Is that how he started?] No, Sabino was doing poems. He was more into poems and stuff. So Sabino had already written kind of a book of poetry, but he didn't see himself as a writer, either. [INT: But what was he doing for you and your teatro?] He became the director of the teatro because I wanted to get out of the teatro. I wanted to get into films. I wanted to raise money. I didn't want the teatro to 53:00stop, but I wanted to move on and try to get into the film because I wanted to do that, the work. So but when we started, we were always together anyway. So when he took over the Chicano teatro I think in '74, that gave me time to really go to Mexico.

00:53:01:13

EG: I went to Mexico City. I was invited by Emilio Carballido. I don't know if you remember Emilio Carballido. He was a professor at Polytechnico in Mexico City. And he was a writer because he was... Mexican contemporary playwright. You know, he was the playwright. I didn't know anything about him, but we were doing teatro in San Antonio and they interviewed me in the local theater- I mean the local TV station. And during that time Emilio Carballido came to speak there at the university that's there, at the Hemisphere. And he was also interviewed. I 54:00forget her name. Anyway, there in San Antonio. And in the conversation, he brought it up that he was looking to meet me, that he wanted to ta- He didn't know me, but wanted to talk to- He had heard about Efrain Gutierrez. He wanted to meet me because I was doing Chicano theater. And he said, his idea- He was in charge in Mexico City, Quadasupra? [PH]. And his thing, since he was a playwright though, he was trying to get theater to the Campesinos in Mexico. And his idea was, he liked the whole concept of Teatro Campesino, how they did theater for the Campesinos. But he was in California. He was in Texas. And so he said, "I would like to speak with this young man, Efrain, because you know, I have you know, this idea of trying to get teatro with the Teatro Campesino." So Marta Tijerina , she was in San Antonio. She called me up and said, "Efrain, 55:00Emillio-" I didn't know who the hell he was, and you know, like... I had an attitude at the time, too. I said... "Anyway, he's over there. He said if you could go, or..." "Okay. I'll go over there." So I took some of the guys in the 56:00teatro. We were all tough and acted... But he was such a nice gentleman. And he, but he said, "Let's go eat lunch tomorrow." Anyway, we got together. We lunch. At lunch he told me, "Efrain, would you be willing to go and work in Mexico City?" I said, "Doing what?" He says, "Exactly what you're doing here." I said, "What do you mean?" He said, "Well, look. I'm in charge of getting a director to go work with the campesinos. We want to start getting teatros to go and do work with the campesinos in Mexico." I said, "Yeah. I guess I could go." He said, "Okay." And he said, "I'm teach at Polytechnico and I'm at..." some other teatro there. "When you get there, just call me and you know, I'll give you all the paperwork, and you can work for us." I said, "Okay." So my girlfriend and I took off. Josie and I took off to- I think it was '74. We took off and we got to... And we, he's happy to see me, he interviewed me. This interview happened somewhere. And he told me, "Efrain, tu eres mexicano verdad?" Le dijo "Yeah, pues, yeah." He said, "No, no. But you were born in Mexico." "No, I was born in San Antonio." "You weren't, you're not a Mexicano." "No. No, but my father's from Mexico." "Well, why did we make a Mexicano-" I didn't understand, but dual citizenship is kind of what he's talking about I guess. But I was a little... "I mean, what's the problem?" He said, "Well, look. It has to be a Mexicano. I cannot hire you if you're not a Mexicano, you're not a Mexican from... That position has to be filled- So if you don't mind, we can do some paperwork." And I started getting a little nervous. I said, "You know what? No." And I didn't like Mexico City. I mean, there was like ants all over the darned place. You get 57:00out in the freeway, and I mean, it's ridiculous. I just said, "You know, I don't think I..." My girlfriend said, "You know what?" So he told me, "I'm sorry to get you over here. What would you-" I said, "Look, since you brought me over here, I need to learn how to write. You know, I don't know how to write. I want to write plays. I want to you know, could you help me write... Give me the solution. Give me the answer. I can't write a script. How can I come up with a play?" He laughed. So he started, told me you know, basic concept of a play, and you know, the characters, and you know, how to do this. And but of course, you're not going to learn everything in a couple of, two or three times that you get together or anything, but you know, he started making me understand, you know, more of a playwright. But I knew I wasn't going to be a playwright. And I said, "God, that's a lot of..." Understand how it worked. But okay. I have the 58:00basic concept idea. Okay. And then I went- I also knew Andres Segura. And so I met some other people there, and we stayed. And then I went looking for Lucio Cabañas who was revolutionary at that time. I was trying to meet Lucio Cabañas. I went to Guerrero and of course I met somebody else, but I didn't get to meet him. And I decide, "You know what? I'm going back-" I didn't like Mexico. I said, "You know, I'm going back. Let's go back to Texas."

00:58:10:05

EG: So when we came back to Texas, we ended up-- You know, Sabino and I said, "You know what? We're going to do the movie." I think it was- I had already been-My friend, I think it was '73 when he got busted. Sabin- I mean Alex Ayala. So it was right around that time. Alex Ayala and I had been going to high school. And we were best friends in high school. He was a cool dude, liked to 59:00dance and everything. But he started to get into drugs, you know. He became a hard heroin addict. But you know, when we graduated high school, you know, I saw you know, what he was getting into. And you know, we were the same crowd, but you know, you can see what's going on. But he pushed me away about '72. He told me, you know, like... You know, he was one of the people that thought I had a brain or something. And you know, like, "You don't belong here." He finally just told me, "I don't want to see you. I don't want you to come look for me. You know, like... You know, it's nothing personal, but get away from us." And you know, he was hanging with some bad people. I remember the last time I was there, before, not that last time, but before he talked to me. We were sitting and there was a couple of friends of his, and we started getting into an argument. And I knew the guy over here, and Alex was over here. He's my friend. This guy, I knew him, but he was a loud mouth. But I didn't know the guy on the right. And 60:00since he was kind of a white guy, back then, you know, it kind of went in my mind, white people didn't carry knives, you know. We were the ones that carried the knives. [LAUGHS] Stupid, who thought like that. But anyway, because we never really got... But this white guy over here was from Alamo Heights, you know. But growing up in Chicano kind of. So I got in a hassle with him, and I remember when I was going to get up, the guy just put... And I looked at my friend like... And he didn't do nothing. He just stayed there. [INT: A gun?] No, a knife. Put a knife in my neck. He just went like that. Boom! And Alex... don't move. And I was looking at him like, "Come on, man. You going to jump him and I'm going to jump him and..." He says, "Don't move. Don't do anything. Just shut up." And this guy cussed me out and I said okay. And then Alex finally, okay, "Put it away." So he put the knife away. And he told me, "You, I'll get you." And I said, "Man, as soon as I go get- I'm going to come back." Alex said, "No, 61:00you're not coming back. These people will kill you." So don't be... As a matter of fact, you know, like that day he told me, "Get away." So then when I came back you know, to talk to him and everything later, that's when he told me, you know, "Get away. You know, you don't belong here, you know. We're friends and everything, but..." And by then he was, you know... Yeah. And like a year later, you know, he went to prison. And so about '73, when I went to his trial, federal court, John Wood, the guy, the judge that got shot, was the one that sentenced him. And I was very disappointed. I was very upset because when you're there- And it's in the film. You know, I show that scene in the movie, that you know, they don't tell you what- All day, they bring prisoners. They don't tell you what time or whatever, you know. He's going to be tried on a certain day. And you got to be there from the morning till he's tried. So I went in the morning, 62:00and no, that's not him. Sometimes I would sit, you know, whoever was being tried. And you know, that's when I started seeing, you know, these young white guys and girls, you know, that are doing the same thing, you know, doing drugs, selling drugs, whatever. And they're getting probation or you know, minor, year, two years, whatever, you know. So I'm going- But you know, I noticed that, but later on, I realized that- But they had all these people speaking for them, you know. Like, or they brought the teacher. They brought the minister. Or they brought, you know, prominent people. And letters and whatever, and asking for leniency and probation and whatever. So that's probably what was got them. They had money, good lawyers, whatever. I just thought, "Wait. Well, they got the same thing, you know. So my friend's going to get the same thing, you know. He's going to be off on probation or something for his offense." But when the guy was 63:00through, him and two other guys, 10 years, 10 years, 10 years. I remember I was sitting down. "No!" I just came out, "No!" You know, because... "How could you do that!? You know? This is not right." You know, going through my head. All I'd say was, "No!"And I remember one of those years, marshal just pfft. Put his hand. He didn't take out the gun. Put his hand, but you knew he was going for a gun, and just, I would say like that, "Sit down. You don't act like that." "Yes, sir." And then when they took him away and everything, and then I walked out. And I had you know, and I had seen a man that had come from California and he couldn't go in because he didn't have a suit or a tie, you know, because in there... You know, and these are the things that bothered me. I said, "You know, how many-" You know, most of the poor Mexicans, you know, especially are ignorant of the law. The parents, you know, the kid that got busted might know, but the parents, you know, they're hard workers, you know, they're laborers. They're construction workers, whatever. And then they're coming to see their car- Like this man told me, "I'm coming all the way from California to see my 64:00son sentenced. And I can't even go in to see him because you know, I have to wear a coat and a tie." And I said, "Man, you know, this is not right." You know, but... And that stayed in me. And we were doing a play- I was doing some skits at San Pedro- the little theater, the San Pedro Theater there in San Antonio. And I could, you know, throughout the play, the performance, you know, we- I was messing up because I'd just gone through the day to see my friend sentenced. So I couldn't stay in focus, you know. So I apologized to the audience you know, a couple of times. And when it was over, you know, I apologized. And I explained why. I said, "You know, I just... My friend was just sentenced, and you know, I..." So there was a reporter there that had covered us a couple of times. Ron White, I believe was his name. A nice, young, white guy 65:00that had followed the teatro. And he told me, "You know what, Efrain? Instead of, why don't you write a play about it? Why don't you do a play about it?" So ah. He says, "You know, that way you can put out what you're feeling." So that stayed. When Sabino- I said, "You know what?" And Sabino said, "I like that idea. Let's do the movie about your friend." He said, "You know all the story. You know everything." I met Emilio Carbadillo, I went back to Mexico City and I told him- [INT: The second time.] Yeah. I told Emilio, "I need somebody. Who could you recommend to send us, to help us write the script?" So he sent me this guy, Lopez. I forget - I have it written down somewhere. But Lopez came down, and I paid him $500 dollars and his expenses. And he spent a week with us. And we couldn't really communicate, you know. And he finally said, "You know what? I'm just going to be taking your money." Because he was going to stay two weeks with us. He says, "You know what? You don't need me. Sabino can do it, because you guys are different from us Mexicano, you know, the way you think, the way 66:00you, your issues. Everything is different. And I, you know, I'm trying to write it, put it down. And I noticed that I'm having- You know, I can't do it for you. Sabino can do it better for you." So then that's how Sabino became the official writer. I came out with the scenarios or whatever, and what I could remember, or what I wanted to put in. And Sabino was the writer.

01:06:08:14

EG: So Sabino started writing about '74, after we met, we started working. I didn't take writer credit because you know, to me he was a writer. It was supposed to be [co?], but I said, "Nah, you're the writer." And anyway, but we had no money. [LAUGHS] You know, here we want to do a movie. We have no money. So I had saved some money, you know. There's some other... But I had saved like about three- I think I had close to $4,000, $3,000 dollars that I had saved up you know, at that time, which was a lot of money to me. And I had heard that, "Well, why didn't you go to university and you know, they can do a movie for you?" At the time, Trinity University in San Antonio had the best film school. 67:00Supposedly it was better than Austin at that time. Trinity had a real good- Bill Hayes, who was the director there. And so I remember I was so naive. I just walked into his office, you know. I went in, I got the, we're going in there, and I knock and the gentleman received me. Nice gentleman. And we sat down. He said, "What do you want?" I said, "Well, you know, I want to know how much would it cost for, to make a movie?" I didn't even have time or whatever, names. "I want to make a movie." "Well, okay. About 90 minutes? Fine. 90 minutes. Okay. What are you going to do?" I said, "Well, what do you need? How do we do it?" He says, "Well, look. You get the script. You do everything, right? You got the script." And, "Yeah, yeah. Okay." "We will film it for you. We will edit it for you, and we will give you a release print. "Okay. How much is that?" "$24,000 68:00dollars." "Oh, shit. I only have three or..." "How does it work?" "Well, you give me $8,000 when we start. $8,000 when we finish. And $8,000 when we give you the release print." I said, "Okay." He said, "Efrain, you want to make a movie." We talked a little bit. So the guy liked me, I guess. So he said, "You know what, Efrain? What if I could get you a scholarship to go to film school here?" I said, "That's what? Four years?" [LAUGHS] He says, "Yeah. You could do your own, you could come here, learn everything and--" I said, "Yeah, but that's four years." It's the way I saw it. You go to school, get a [TRAILS OFF]. I want to do a movie now. He says, "Well, I could help you, but you don't want to enroll or..." Because he was the head. He says, "I could get you in." I says, "Yeah, but I'm not looking to get in school. I want somebody to do it and I'll pay him." He goes, "No." I said, "Okay. Well, thank you." And I left. And that was a 69:00big office. I was leaving. And I got to the door, I opened the door, and I remember he was- the big desk in the back. And just as I was going to go out, he said, "Efrain, you're really serious about making this movie, aren't you?" I turned around and said, "Mr. Hayes, yes sir. I don't know how I'm going to do it, or what, but I know I'm going to make it. We're going to do it. But you know, thank you, you know. At least I understand you know, how much money I need to get." He goes, "Come here." He said, "I'm going to introduce you to somebody that might be able to help you." I said, "Oh, okay." So he called this guy. He says, "He's a student instructor here. You can audit his classes. I want you to meet with him, talk to him. His name's Jack Landman." So this young guy comes in, you know, Jack. Immediately we hit it off real nice. And Jack to me reminded me of Richie Cunningham of... You know, really nice guy. And I told Jack, "Hey, 70:00Jack, you know. Can I audit-" So you know, I audited some classes, but you can't learn anything. [LAUGHS] So the end of the class I don't even understand what the hell they're talking about. And he's explaining the- especially AB rolling, and you know, I'm going, "What the heck are these people talking about?" So I said, "Jack, you know, tell me, how can we make a movie?" He said, "Well, Efrain, you need a camera." [LAUGHS] I said, "Okay. So the first thing I should get is a camera." "That's right." I had also met Milos Strunka in Mexico around that time. And Milos, the advice that he gave me, too- Milos was a Czechoslovakian, married to a Mexicana there in Mexico. And he was doing films out there. As a matter of fact, UT Austin offered him a position back in 1976 to come teach film over here in UT Austin. I remember, you know, he had come by and we had talked. And he decided to stay in Mexico, but he had been offered to come 71:00to UT Austin. He was exiled, he was supposed to be a prominent filmmaker in Czechoslovakia, but he was exiled during in the '60s and he came to, self exile I guess to Mexico. And so he tried to show me some thing- but I thought he was a filmmaker. And he finally, he said, "You know what, Efrain? Just get a camera. Just make sure there's enough light. Don't worry about it. That's all I could..." He tried to explain it. I wrote it down. I had it at one time, you know, how AB Roll works and this, and he put it on paper. And I spent like two, three days with him. I said, "Milos, you know..." He said, "Get the camera and just make sure you get it in focus and there's enough light." "Okay." I remember that advice. So anyway, when Jack- He said, "Okay. Get a camera." "Where do I buy a camera, Jack?" He said, "You need a 16-millimeter camera." "I don't know anything about equipment, but okay." And then Jack called, "Hey, Efrain. They're 72:00selling a camera in Memphis, Tennessee for $10,000 dollars." "That's a good one?" "Oh, yeah. It's like a top of the line. The Arriflex BL camera, a 16," which was the camera at the time. "It's a used one, but they want $10,000 dollars for it." "Okay." Right around that time, this guy came in from- we had an office right there, close to downtown at the Chicano Arts Theater. We had got an office- Eloy Centeno who was the grocery store, had this property. So he let us have one of the houses that he used to own there. Right by Santano's grocery store downtown on Buena Vista. So Sabino was the one that was running the office at the time. So this guy came in from- a Puerto Rican guy came in from St. Louis, St. Paul, through the American Lutheran Church. And he visited you know, our Chicano Arts Theater where we were doing that. He liked, he got off to what we had done, and the way we were doing it, and Sabino was doing and everything. 73:00So he thought it was really cool. And then Sabino said, "Well, you know, Efrain's the one that founded the teatro." And so I had come in and said, "Efrain, let me introduce you to..." I forget. Jose or whatever his name was. I 74:00said, "Okay." So we talked and then he, "What do you want to do?" I said, "You know what? Well, we really would like to do some movie. We'd like to do a film." You know, not a movie. I said, "We'd like to do a film." And he said, "Well, what's the problem?" I said, "Well, we have no money." He said, "Do you have [INAUDIBLE]?" I said, "No, we...," you know, exaggerate, "We have everything. We got script. We got actors. We don't have the money to the camera and the equipment and stuff. But they offered to sell us a camera for $10,000." "So you would need $10,000?" I said, "Yeah." So he said, "Let me see what I can do." So he went back to St. Paul, Minnesota, where their office was. And then about a month later, he says, "Efrain, we might be able to get you a loan for $10,000. Can you come down here and make a presentation?" "Hell, yeah." So I took off and flew down there. And I got there. And they said, "You know what? We can't..." And after I made the presentation, I remember I was outside when they decided to make their decision. It was the board, or whatever. And I kind of heard vaguely comments or whatever. But I heard- The Puerto Rican guy's pissed off, speaking up for us. So he came out and he said, "They turned you down." I was thinking of all this money I lost, the airplane ticket, the hotel. Shit. And then you know, but it wasn't his fault. I said, "Well..." He said, "But hold on." So he went back in there and he created some more... And he came out and said, "I got you a loan." "All right." He said, "But you're going to have to film... They want to see a clip of your film. Can you film a clip?" I didn't even know how to use the damn camera. So, "Hey, Jack! Can you..." So in the movie, PLEASE DON'T BURY ME 75:00ALIVE, with the pool scene? That was shot by students from Trinity University. [LAUGHS] They helped me by coming and doing that clip, editing the whole thing. We just you know, acted and directed it, but they came and did that for me. And we sent that as if it was our work. You know, like Sabino and my work, but it was actually done by students at Trinity University. And they went over there, and they liked it. So then, I was worried about the loan. And they said, "No. Don't worry." Now it became a grant, so I didn't have to pay that. So my first grant was from Trinity University- I mean from American Lutheran Church. They gave us the $10,000. And I just used that $10,000. I told Jack, "Send it to Memphis." And they mailed us the camera to our house. And then we got it. Like, we were like... cave people, you know. Sabino and I like looking... Yeah, I called Sabino. "Hey, we got the camera. Like, I don't know. What do you do? Oh." Sabino knew a little bit more than I did because he became the cameraman. "Oh, no. Don't touch that. Don't touch." "Jack, Jack, come on over. We got the 76:00camera." And Jack's laughing. "Oh, wow. No, this is nice." And then the change- "How do we load it up?" With the magazine and you have to get the changing bag, and you know. I don't know if you're familiar with it. You have to change it in the dark in there. I mean, that was the biggest- Every time we filmed, we had to call Jack because every time we had to load up, we always messed up. And he didn't... We jammed it or something. Jack would always come and... The first scene we shot, it- The first one came out of focus, the second one- or first, not light, and then out of focus or something like- We shot, the first thing that we shot three times. [LAUGHS] Till we got the hang of it. Because we were learning as we went along. That's what I tell people. We weren't trained filmmakers, but I always give a lot of credit to Jack Landman from Trinity University in getting us started. And then, like I said, but we were still going with you know, what we were doing, and really no contact with any filmmakers, 77:00Chicanos, or anybody. Now, we're on our own, with the little of what we knew. And then when we got towards the end, you know, that's when Sabino said, "You know what, Efrain? We just produced the first Chicano movie, man." "Oh, really? Well, that's interesting." And then we screened it at Trinity University. And then Ricardo Sanchez who was visiting us from El Paso. And I had some people- We had a bad commentary from some guy that cut us real bad, but he said the movie was a... You know, anyway, real bad. And they interviewed Bill Hayes. He said, "You know, Efrain has done what students want to do, you know." This is what a film student wants to do, is graduate and make his movie. And you know. He got killed anyway. Bill Hayes. But anyway, he gave us a lot of help. And so we didn't know what we had.

01:17:43:11

EG: So we screened it at Trinity and we happened to invite this guy that put a 78:00bad you know, letter to the editor, you know. And I started getting, the talk shows started talking real bad about us, that we were you know, racist and that you know, it was insulting to Mexican-Americans. And you know, there was still that Chicano kind of thing at the time. So about half the people didn't like the word Chicano, and so-- So I said, "Man, we just blew it, I guess. You know, nobody's going to see our film or something." So we decided to rent a hall at a church there in San Antonio, Sacred Heart. And you know, it was about 500 people. So we sold $10 dollars a ticket and we made over $5,000. It blew us away. Like whooo! $5,000 dollars. You know, like... But then we you know, we had TV come over, and everybody you know, made a big deal about it. But to me, I got scared, because it was mostly family and friends. And you know. So I said, "Can 79:00this do it on its own, you know?" So but we got encouraged. So I said, "You know what? I'm going to..." Jack told me, "Well, Efrain, I offered it to Eloy Centeno who had a theater," Mexican theater. And he wasn't into his... like who are the actors? You know, "You got any Lou Chavire [PH] and Neem [PH] as girlfriend?" You know. It's ridiculous, you know. "No, we don't have any professional actors." So they didn't want it. I said, "Give me 10 percent, you know. I just want to screen it." John Santikos had all the theaters in San Antonio, American theaters, at the time. So I went to Santikos and I told Santikos, "Let's go 50-50 on it, you have so many theaters." He kind of laughed at me. Not mean, but I said you know, not knowing anything about Chicano or anything. He said, "You know what? I'm not interested in going percentage with you, but I'll rent it to you," for I think the first week was $3,500 or $4,000, something like that. 80:00[INT: For a week?] For a week. [INT: One screen?] One screen. And then I had to pay $500 for the ad, the little ad in the paper, that he covered because you know, it goes through him. But he's charging me. And then I went and got credit, and long story, but I went and got credit at KDA in San Antonio, the first person that gave me credit. KUKA, K-U-K-A. The other radio station. And I went to Channel 12, and Channel 41 TV stations to get some commercials. I mean, we went all out and then we rented, you know, the lights and everything. We put them on in front of the screen. I said, "We're going to go out, we're going to go out big time, man." So but, when I had all this... I didn't have any money. And all these people, you know, I kind of faked all these people giving me credit, a line of credit. Because the first one I went, I think it was KUKA or 81:00something. It was a popular station at the time. And they turned me down. "You know, you have any credit?" "No, I never had credit." "Do you have- No, okay. So no." So then I went to KDA. When I went to KDA radio station- it's a Mexicano station, so you know, I heard this guy while I was making my application, when he was being turned down- Or they said, he said, "Well, yeah, but they gave me credit over there." "Oh, they did? Oh, we'll give you credit, too." So, "Okay. I already got credit over there." "Oh, you do. Oh, okay. We'll give you credit." And then I went not with this one. I went back to that. And they gave me credit over there, so I got it from them then too. So since I had credit, then everybody just let me have it. So we went into the hole about $12,000 dollars for the first week. And we didn't know what the hell was going to happen. [LAUGHS] So we started, instead of a Friday, we started on a Thursday, the premiere night. You know, we had two screenings the premiere night on Thursday, special screening. And we packed the theater. But again, I saw a lot of you know, same friends and Chicanos and you know. So I'm going, "hijole". And then 82:00the guy tells me, the manager tells me, "You know what, Efrain? A movie is going to make it on the weekend, Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. I mean, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursdays- If you don't make it on the weekend, you know, you might as well forget it." He said, "But we start on Friday, Saturday, Sunday, all the way to..." I said, "Okay." So I remember the following day, I didn't go out. I just told my girlfriend, give me a- I don't even drink that much, but I got a bottle of scotch. And I said, "I don't want to talk to anybody. I don't hear anybody. No calls." I had a secretary at that time. I said, "I don't want to talk to anybody." So people kept calling and then, finally, my girlfriend tells me, "You know, Efrain, the manager wants to talk to you at Century South." I said, "I don't want to go." "No, he says that you have to go down there. There's some kind of problem." I said, "Oh, man." And it was about 4:30 or something like that, in the afternoon, and I'm almost kind of high already, about half a bottle that I drank all day. So I said, "Oh, my god." So I 83:00remember I was driving my little Honda. I had a little car, a little Honda. And I'm driving and thinking. And I flashed back, like I remembered my father and... I just, what the hell am I doing? [LAUGHS] And then I park in the parking lot. And then I see the parking lot's full, but that was when ALL THE PRESIDENT'S MEN, SUPERMAN, you know, that was all these big movies that were on at the time. And it's a four-screen, I think it was a four-screen theater. So I went. And you know, parked way far out and I started getting closer. It was like 5:30 or whatever, five something when I got there. And when I got closer, I just a line outside the theater of people. Didn't pay much attention. And then as I got closer, I saw that most of them were Mexicano, like Chicano, so oh man. Could it be? I started running because- could it be? And sure enough. They were all waiting for PLEASE DON'T BURY ME ALIVE. I said, "Wow." So I walked into the- And the manager greets me, and I said, "What happened? What's the problem?" He says, "There's no problem, Efrain. They told me you weren't going to come, so I had to 84:00get you- You have to see this." He says, and then he goes, "Look at this." He opened and it's full. And you know, good laughing and what have you. And he says, "That's the four o'clock showing. Those people out there are for the six o'clock showing. You had a full house at four. You had almost three-fourths of a house at two. At twelve, you had almost a 100 people. If you have over 50 at twelve, that means you're going to have people. You got a blockbuster on your hands." He says...I said, "No, but you still-" He said, "You're going to..." I said, "Okay. Well, let's see what happens." And sure enough. We made almost $30,000 the first weekend. And so I thought on Monday, I was going to go turn myself in you know, because how am I going to pay all this $12,000 that I owe? Because mostly in advertisement and renting the- Then Santiko comes to me. "Okay, Efrain. You want to go 50-" I said, "No, no, no." We had a sliding scale. "No, we're going to... "So I think we did $45,000 for three weeks that we had it 85:00there in Santikos- I mean at the Century South. And then Santikos took it to the Texas Theater downtown, the Varsity Drive-In, the Mission Drive-In. And the Varsity was exciting because the Varsity was close to my house, you know. Now it's an HEB there, but it was 24th and Culebra. And I lived on San Bernardo. So when we were kids, we used to sneak through the back and stuff like that because they had big holes in the Drive-In. And then like I said, and then when I was in junior high I couldn't even get out because the kids would beat me up in there. And then you know, here I am, and I remember the first night, all the way from 24th, all the way to Culebra- I mean, to General McMullen, that's where the line was starting. Like from General McMullen, the line was up to all the way down there to get into the theater, right outside my house. I'm going, Oh my god. This is..." So they called me, the manager, to go see him. And I go to the 86:00drive-In and I'm talking there to the people there, you know, I had just met. And the manager says, "You know, would you like to say something? The movie's coming to an end. Would you like to say something?" I said, "Well, if anybody would like to see. What do you want me to say?" He said, "Well, just- Can we tell them you're here if they want to say hi to you or something?" "Yeah. Sure." I thought maybe two or three people would come in and say hi to me, you know, and said, "Sure." And I'm in you know, like the, where they used to have the snack bar area. And I'm looking at that. So it finishes. And then the man announces, or whatever, "Efrain Gutierrez from the movie, you know, you just saw is here and you know, anybody wants to say hi." So I step outside and I looked like that and, when he said that, you just see the doors open, boop boop boop boop. [MAKES NOISE] Whoa! So then I said to Sabino. "We got something. I don't know what."

01:26:35:21

EG: And then people started calling us. And we were very haphazard. We didn't 87:00have no distribution because we didn't know how, anything. So I think the people in Del Rio called. I was interviewed in a local station and the phones were ringing. People wanted to talk to me. And they got a call from Del Rio and from El Paso. So we went to Del Rio and then we came back. And then we went to El Paso. And then we came to Brownsville. And then we went to Colorado. Sabino and I went to all over Texas. And then I went to Detroit and Michigan- I mean, in Michigan, but I went to Detroit. Home base out of there. We went to Saginaw, Bay City, Lansing. We covered all their areas. Sabino went to Utah, to Pueblo, Colorado and... Denver, Colorado. He went one way- We had two prints. [LAUGHS] He took one print and I took the other print. And then we ended up with eventually seven prints. And then you know, things just started happening. But then, Mexico came aboard, you know. That's when they contacted me, Azteca Films. 88:00And they wanted to make a you know, make a movie with me. They sent el hijo de...el hermano de Echeverria, Luis Echeverria was the president of Mexico at the time. Rodolfo Echeverria came down from Mexico and Santano [PH] and they brought their lawyer and everybody. And they approached me about letting them take over the distribution for PLEASE DON'T BURY ME ALIVE. And so I didn't know anything, but Eloy said- Sotomayor. This-- Jesus Sotomayor was his name. Jesus Sotomayor. Like he was the producer, the big head of peliculas mexicanas is what they called it in Mexico. And then they took me to Churubusco, gave me a tour of Churubusco. You know, they were bullshitting me all over the place. So I didn't know much about it, but I said, "You know what? This is interesting you know." 89:00And then they came back to Texas. And we met at the office there, Eloy Centeno. Eloy Centeno and this other producer from Mexico, and Jesus Sotomayor. And they kept telling me, "Efrain. Look we can distribute it. You're never going to- You should be doing movies. You should make another movie." You know. And it was true. We were exhausted in three, four months that we had gone all over the place. You know. And I said... And the money was coming in, but we were also putting it out like crazy because we didn't know what we were doing. So they convinced me that we should make another movie, and that they would take the distribution over. And the other thing I remember, I was buying a car and I said, "You know," I was going to sign and I said, "I want $12,000." I think they 90:00wanted $12,000. And Ernesto Ancira [PH] was selling his car, his corvette, a white corvette. And I think it was a '76, but it was used because it was '77. That was his personal car, and it only had like 2,000 miles or whatever for $10,000 is what they were offering it to me. So I said, "You know what? I need $12,000 to buy this car." So I didn't sign it. Right away, took out a check and gave it to me. I said, "Oh, okay." So I signed it. And then after this, he said, "If you would have asked for $50,000 we would have given it to you." Well, I didn't know any better, so I... But then they, you know, they did. They take that movie and [MAKES NOISE]. They never showed it anywhere. They never did anything with it. [INT: Nowhere?] Nowhere. And I couldn't have it because they took my prints. They took everything away from me. So basically I said, "Wow. That was quick." So everything just died out. So if it hadn't been for Chon Noriega from UCLA, I would have lost the prints because he was the one that was able to salvage PLEASE DON'T BURY ME ALIVE. If it hadn't been for him, we would have lost it. It would have been burned in a fire that happened after we picked it up. RUN, TECATO, RUN was at one of the producers, co-producers. And he had kept it in his closet for 17 years. So the last print we got- That's why it's in 91:00black and white. It was in color when we filmed it. But the way we shot it now, it's in- because it, the color just ruined- They were trying eventually, according to Chon, they were going to try to get it back in color, but to release it, when they released it in video, they put it in black and white, which I agreed to. But it was in color. But since it had been sitting so long, the rust and everything inside the canister dyed it. And Chon found PLEASE DON'T BURY... I mean, CHICANO LOVE IS FOREVER at CFI in Los Angeles. I thought CFI had given it to Sotomayor because when I tried to find it somewhere in the years, 92:00years later, they mentioned that I had signed a letter for Sotomayor to take PLEASE DON'T BURY ME ALIVE, and that he had taken it and you know, everything... But when Chon researched it and he found out that they had it at CFI. So he got the original print from CFI, and they gave it over to UCLA. And then Chon, UCLA was able to get the PLEASE DON'T BURY ME ALIVE away from, meaning the rights back, from Mexico. And RUN, TECATO, you know, we found it. So Chon is the one that was able to get them to the archives at UCLA. But that was 20 years later.

01:32:04:11

INT: I wonder if we could go back and talk about the making of PLEASE DON'T BURY ME ALIVE, and the scripting, the casting, choosing, selecting the locations. And just kind of the purpose you had for this film going in. You talked about you were frustrated and you were asking Mexican, Mexican-American filmmakers, "How can we make a film? How can we make a film?" And everybody was telling you you can't. But you decided you were going to make it anyway.

EG: Yeah. Sabino by that time, as I said, Sabino and I, when we got together, he was from Eagle Pass and I'm from San Antonio, but you know, we grew up kind of the same way, meaning he grew up seeing Mexican movies. You know, Pedro Infante and all those. I grew up, again, in the Mexican theaters was because of my Mom. And then he grew up seeing American movies, you know, and so did I. But we both agreed that we weren't happy with the way Hollywood was portraying us. And the stories were not... you know, we're not really, couldn't relate really to them. And Mexico was kind of the same thing. Mexico, you know, all the movies- We liked Ranchera, the western, Mexican westerns. But basically you know, whenever they- The stories were not something that we could relate to. And of course, you 94:00know, the issues that they covered and especially during the Chicano movement, the Chicano era in the '70s, Mexico seemed to think it was funny, and tried to use- I don't know if it was on purpose or what, but I could tell people, "Mexico was doing Chicano movies before we did, before I did anyway." They did SOY CHICANO Y MEXICANO. THIS ANGRY CHICANA. CHICANO GO HOME. You know, comedies, things. And so you know, we didn't like it, but after I came from California, I started then approaching the companies that came into San Antonio, let's say, to film. A Mexican company that came to do a movie over here. And one of them that came was THIS ANGRY CHICANA, was directed by Pepito, Pepe Romay. He's an actor and kind of co-director. And his father was the producer-director. And his 95:00father, at the time I didn't really understand that much. But now I realize the man that I met. But he was like one of the main founders of film in Mexico. He started silent films. And then he directed just about, produced all the movies. Pedro Infante, Luis Aguilar, Antonio Aguilar and you name them. I don't even know all the artists, but you know, if you look at his filmography, I mean it's incredible with, you know, going all the way to the '40s and '50s. So I met him as an old man. Joselito. They called him Joselito Rodriguez. But actually, he was kind of more in the background. The one I dealt with was Pepito Romay, his son. And they were doing this movie, THIS ANGRY CHICANA. That was in '74. They released it in '75 I believe. THIS ANGRY CHICANA was a movie that they approached me about being the co-star with Pepito. I was supposed to be his 96:00younger brother, you know, the Chicano. They're Mexicanos and he's a wrestler, which to us didn't make sense. But anyway, he was a wrestler and you know, [NON-ENGLISH DIALOGUE] and I was supposed to be like his younger brother, you know kind of Chicano, kind of get in trouble. So I'm the troublemaker. Of course, that's the guy's who is going to die at the end. [LAUGHS] But when I agreed to do the film after they saw me at the San Antonio Theater, one of the performances there, there was a professor there- This is about the time that Sabino and I were getting together. Sabino's professor, Fernandez. I forget his first name, but Fernandez was their drama instructor, something there. But he had been a movie star in Mexico, you know, and had a little name in Mexico. So he knew the people. So they were looking for a Chicano, let's say. And I was a loud mouth I guess in San Antonio, so they directed him towards me. And so when they asked me, I said, "Sure, you know. Chicano movie. Oh, wow. You know, this is something-" I don't know- naive- I thought we were going to have some kind of 97:00influence or say-so in the movie. And so they wanted to talk to us, to you know, feel how, because we're different and everything. So they asked me, you know, the teatro would be part of like a bandida, the gang in the movie, my teatro. "Sure." So I got some of the kids in the teatro to be the bandida in the movie. And then when I started reading the script, you know, I started going, "Hey, wait a minute. We don't talk like that, you know. God, we wouldn't say- we wouldn't do that." I mean, so they were trying, and they would, you know, we got some... I guess what they were able to put into their movie, but they already in their mind what they were- of course, we weren't going to change that. But you know, it got to where about two weeks before we're ready to film, and I'm still arguing about the script and I'm getting mad about you know, a whole bunch of little things that... And I mean, I was very vocal. So they, finally Pepito just 98:00told me, "You know what, Efrain? If you can't do it, if you're not going to do it the way we want, well, I'm going to have to call somebody from... another actor. And I'm going to bring in an actor from Mexico City." And also the money was, they were only paying me $500 dollars a week, for just two weeks a $1,000 dollars. And I said, "Okay. Go ahead and do it. I'm not going to, you know... I can't work like with that." So they went and got this guy, a young guy that we befriended. And we kind of made him a Chicano in other words. We taught him how to walk, how to talk, and little things to make him, to look- I said, "Because you're talking with a Chileno accent, you know callate la boca you're embarrassing us, dude." So anyway, we kind of helped him out. And I agreed that we would be- So I come out with, you won't hear my voice because they cut our voices out. They dubbed in other voices for us. The Chicanos. Supposedly so they wouldn't have to pay any residuals to us or anything. But you know. You see us, 99:00but not our voices. And I have like three scenes or something like that. And you know, they wanted me to look all mad and everything. So anyway, [LAUGHS] but the agreement was that we were going to shadow them. You know, I said, "We want to do-" You know, we had thought about movies, doing something, you know, film. Not a movie, but a... I said, "We want to shadow, see how the- [INT: You and Sabino?] Me, Sabino, and some of the other actors and members of the teatro. So you know, I was trying to get- "Some are going to be actors. Some are going to be cameramen. Some are going to be... We want to know, and we want to hang around to see how the whole process works out, how you do it. Not the editing, but the filming first." And so they agreed that we would help work with them. But then, as we were working along with the movie, I mean, I was treated kind of special let's say because I was allowed to go with the main actors, and the 100:00director. They had two buses. And I was so focused on other things that I didn't pay attention at that particular time. They had one air-conditioned bus, which had all the you know, the main actors and the main crew or whatever. And then they had another bus, and that was for the extras. And most of them... my members, teatro, Sabino included. He's the one that, when we went to lunch, they would also have like two reservations. And of course, at the time, we were going through the Chicano movement. We're having all these problems. And they're catering to the white actors that maybe were a bit part. Or the guy that plays a wrestler, a big you know. Good looking guy, but a big you know, wrestler, a professional actor that they brought in. And you know, everybody, directors, and all the Mexicanos, you know, are sticking to all these white people, like... And these people are also extras, and yet they're riding over here in the 101:00air-conditioned bus. And all the Chicanos in my group were over here. So we went to eat over there at, because we were filming at, it used to be the Lutheran Hospital there on Zarzamora. And we were filming there. And I hadn't paid attention to it. I was more- And then Sabino, when I... I was sitting and I said, "Come on." He says, "No. We're sitting over here." I said, "What do you mean?" He says, "No. That's for them. I guess you're over there, but they put us over here." So that's when I said, "Hey, wait a minute. How come..." And then I really got upset. I said, "You know, how come you all are treating us... You know what? This is not right." You know, and brought up the fact, "You're worse than the gringos, man. You know, here you are and as soon as you meet a gringo, you know, you're all with them. One girl, or two guys." And you know. So, and that's when they brought Joselito Rodriguez. I started getting upset, and they brought the father. And you know, he was a nice gentleman, you know. "No, Efrain, you know, es que" Tried to reason, excuse his son, you know. His son, 102:00this is his first time he's kind of directing, and you know, he doesn't really understand the issues. And so he comes down. I said, "Okay, but you know, but we've gone through half a movie and you know, I'm the only one that's allowed over here, you know. So this has got to change. If not, we're not going to work any more, you know. We're not going to participate." But they needed us at least, because there are some scenes that they're going to need to continue, even if extra. So they said, "Okay." I said, "Well, we're supposed to be able to shadow everybody. So we're not going to ride in the bus any- we're not going to ride in there, un-air-conditioned bus. I don't know how you're going to do it, but all my teatro-" which is about four or five of us, "we're going to be in the bus. We're not going to be second-class citizens over here for you Mexicans." I mean, you know, we got- I was really insulting. And that's when they realized that I was upset. And then, so we went to film at the Crockett Hotel downtown in San Antonio. We were filming there, you know, again, you know. They're having their meetings and ignoring us, and Sabino's trying to talk, questions, and they 103:00don't want to talk to him. And Sabino said, "You know what, Efrain? They're not going to let us shadow them the way they said, you know. It's been, you know- And it's almost over, and they still haven't allowed us really to... so we can learn something, or at least look over their shoulder or something." So around that time, they had left some canisters, you know, rolls that they'd already shot. I don't know. 20, 30 minutes, whatever, but there was two or three canisters of film there. And you know, and I had been trying to talk to Joselito and I think he was trying to ignore me, because like, "Get this guy away from me." I was a pain in their butt, I guess. So David, one of the members that started with me from the very beginning of the teatro, David. He's passed away, too. David Peña. He told me, "Efrain, look at this." I said, "What?" He said, "That's the film they shot." I said, "Oh, yeah?" I said, "Well, make it disappear." And I walked away. And David, I don't know what he did to it, but he 104:00went and hid it somewhere. And then you know, so I talked, whatever happened with Romay and I, we're talking and he didn't want to listen and whatever. So we come out and we're in the lobby sitting down. And everybody's walking around. You see all these, you know, the cameramen, and everybody looking. "Efrain." I said, "What happened?" He said, "Oh, no. We're looking for some film that, there was stock footage that we shot." And I said, "You know what? Let me ask my..." Anyway, we just- I said, "I don't know where it is, but I could get it for you." "What do you mean?" I said, "Look." They got kind of threatening, like, "Wow, if you stole it, we're..." "Call the police. You'll never see your film again. I didn't take it. I don't know where it is. I don't know anything about it, but I can get it for you if you do what you said you were going to do, which is let us 105:00shadow you so that, you know, I want Sabino with the cameraman, with the director. I want to be you know, the projector, the director- We don't want to get involved. We don't even want to act. We really wanted to see how the whole process was doing because we'd never been on a set with a movie. And here you guys are. And soy Mexicano, we thought you all were going to cooperate." So we 106:00laid it out. So they said, "Okay. We will do it." I said, "Okay. We'll give you your film back. And we gave it to him, but of course, after that, they became cold. You know, we got to talk to the director, Pepito Romay. And then we got, you know, the main cameraman was really nice with Sabino and gave him some hints and stuff like that about- Because Sabino was, ended up being our cameraman and he was learning on the job. So you know, that was at the very end. So we knew that Mexico wasn't going to do it. Then they brought film in there, SOY CHICANO Y MEXICANO. And the same thing. You know, they were going to help us out. And that was the joke there because I went over there real pissed off to the director, and they were filming a scene. And they go, "Efrain, before I talk to you, could you do me a... You wouldn't mind being in this scene?" So I mean... "Okay, I'm going to... But hold on. I'll talk to you later, but could you come in here and, you know..." And it's at the beginning of the movie. That's the only... [LAUGHS] It's funny, because I walked in... Actually, it's funny because my friends, after, would laugh at me and say... Because you know, "Okay." So I walk in and go like to the guy that's sitting like at a hotel or something. At the beginning of the movie I walked in with a hat. They put this hat on. It was odd. Anyways, a nice guy. "Efrain, ahorita hablo contigo." So I came out and we were going to protest and whatever. "Hey, no, no. They're going to talk to us. Don't worry, you know- We don't have to..." Because we were going to be around and you know, whenever they were filming over there, we were going to be behind. And we weren't going to disrupt them because we didn't like- "Here you're doing Chicano movies and you're not even talking to us. What the hell? And we didn't 107:00like what you all are doing, making fun of us." So, "No, we're going to talk to you but..." Anyway, nothing happened. But I stopped the whole- And then after, he said, "No, Efrain. No mas dejaron" as soon as they bought him with a little scene. So I always feel, laugh like I said. It wasn't like that, but I mean, it kind of, especially Juan, Sabino's brother, would say, "No. It was Efrain, man. You know, we could have gotten something, but no. They gave him a little part and you know. So he backed off." But anyway, we realized, Sabino and I, that nothing was going to happen. So, and we had already been frustrated with Hollywood. So I said, "You know what?" That's when we went on our own. And then Sabino you know, started kind of putting more on a script, but more on a play... what's the... a script for a play, not for a movie kind of thing. And you can see in the filming, you know, like everything is done kind of... Like in PLEASE DON'T BURY ME ALIVE, you know, we don't have too much movement. Well we couldn't... Probably would have made it worse. So everything is set kind of like 108:00in front of you. Like a theater. You know. So we didn't get to shoot as much as, the way we would have wanted to, but we just wanted to get it out.

01:47:53:10

INT: Did you have entire script written before you started shooting?

EG: No. [LAUGHS] [INT: You're writing as you're shooting?] We're writing as we're shooting. [INT: Wow.] I mean, we had the idea of how we wanted it, and then we look, we're about 40 minutes here. Hey, "Efrain, we need another scene. What other scene?" You know. As things that we saw, as evolved, we would put them in or we would add to it, whatever, to make another scene, you know. But the story was, you know, how he ended up going to prison. We knew that was the beginning and the ending. Now, to fill it in, you know, and then some things we shot didn't come out. And, so there was a lot of problems, but we got you know, about 90 percent of what we really wanted. And you know, technically it was kind of bad, but then we had no money. We had no, you know... And like I tell people, 109:00back then, film was expensive and you had to send it off, and get it processed. And then they send you a... what do you call it? Black and white print so that you can see the dailies. [INT: Oh yeah, a work print?] They called them the dailies. So you shoot, and then you don't know. You got to wait a day or two till you see what came out. And then you can progress until... So with one scene we had [MAKES NOISE]. "No good. Do it again. Do it again." But eventually you know, we started getting, Sabino started getting the hang of it, being a bit more of a cameraman. And we understood a little more of what we were doing. But it was very haphazard. Like I said, I wasn't really going to be the actor in the movie. We auditioned for actors, but the actors that we liked, you know, we, for whatever, maybe the money that they weren't going to get or whatever. And the ones that, you know, wouldn't talk to us. So at the end, you know, Sabino said, "Well, why don't you do it?" Same thing with my girlfriend playing the part, but we didn't, it was going to be some other- We even auditioned. We had- But then for whatever happened, you know, they didn't come seriously enough to what we 110:00were going to do. And we were getting ready to film, so we recruited my girlfriend, too. So she was a reluctant actress. She was never really wanted to. Josefina Faz didn't want to be in the movie, didn't really, she was more, she wasn't too much into the Chicano movement at the time, the way I was. She wasn't as committed as I was. She eventually did, but you know, at the beginning she wasn't. That's why a lot of people, I feel bad because I don't talk about Josie that much as being that involved, even though she was kind of like the producer with me. But at the time, she wasn't. If you could see interviews that she did, you know, she did it only because she was with me. She wasn't doing it because she wanted to do it. Until RUN, TECATO, was when she got involved, and she started getting, camera work, and editing, and doing you know, really participating in the third movie. [INT: So what was the process like? I mean, 111:00you and Sabino would discuss, we need a scene like this. And then he would write it out?] Yes. [INT: And then you would cast it and find the location?] We already had the, you know, we had the people more or less that, you know- The main characters were me and my girlfriend, let's say. And then we had the father and the mother who were, you know, actors. Not main, but they had done acting. And then you know, the scenes... Like there's one scene- [LAUGHS] And that one, the students from Trinity helped me. And they don't, this is- which I don't mind. My kids don't like me to talk too much about it, but they were... I used to smoke a lot, you know. You know, I smoked since I was about 13, 14 years old, started smoking. And we would be high, we were smoking. [LAUGHS] You know, I'd be with the kids from Trinity, would laugh, be like, "Ah, you got..." But it was interesting because they were doing coke. We couldn't afford the coke, but we 112:00were doing the weed. And so some of the you know, some of the scenes that we were shooting, sometimes you know, we came out from- Like especially the scene where we're talking about- we were smoking. We were taking one- We need a scene about education. What do you think about education? And then we started thinking, you know, like, well, I remember you know, like my teachers, you know, they were all white, you know. And that's another thing that like I tell people. I grew up, you know, everything was white. You know, the teachers were white. The principal was white. The store owner was white. The doctor was white. The lawyers were white. The judges were white. Everywhere you went outside the barrio, you know, we had no power, let's say. We had no business, unless you went to the Mexican restaurant or the little Tiendita. But if you went to HEB or something like that, you know... So, and then you know, we went to work in farms that were owned by white people. The policemen were white. So to me, I grew up 113:00thinking that you know, that was life, you know, that white people owned everything. And we were supposed to work for them. So in the education, you know, they didn't want to let us speak Spanish back then. They would hit us, spank us for speaking Spanish. And then you know, the way I went, like they resented that I got out of school early and then came in late. And you know, the teachers, oh, they didn't want me when they came in. And they hated when I left. And so I never felt you know, really comfortable with the teachers, that they were really committed to really trying to educate us, or me anyway. So we'd talk about, "Yeah, but remember there was some Mexicanas." "Yeah, but they were worse than the gringas. You know, they were so, they were-" I don't mean to insult black, but estaban mas negras, you know. And yet they you know, they wanted everybody to be white. They wanted you to be English. That's what we felt, that they wanted to make you American, I guess. And the only way they're going to make you American is if you speak English, and you always speak English. And you know... To me, you know, we had that conversation. And we had it you know, all 114:00together smoking and everything. So we came up with that scene because we said, "Remember? You know, Paco [PH] and he had a third-grade education. He got to all [INAUDIBLE]." I mean, you know, like, here we had all these Mexican-American teachers that they looked down on us, too, you know. And so it was never really something positive, you know, that... Oh, you always had one or two teachers. But I'm saying overall, you know, our education wasn't that great. So you know, we would think about things like that, you know. We would get together at Sabino's house or whatever, because when we were doing teatro, we would go perform in the park, pass the hat around. Then we'd go buy... what was that cherry wine that was very popular at that time? Go get together and just drink and smoke, and think about what else we were going to do, and what we were planning to do. So when we would get together, mostly Sabino, myself, my 115:00girlfriend at the time, Juan, David, and some of the other kids. And we would you know, just like kids. Get together, get pizza or something. And we would start talking about different things. And then from there, out of the conversation, something would come up. You know, "That's a good you know, scene that we can use into it." And then we would you know, work it out to put it in the scene. The different things that Alexandro was doing. And then I would try to remember what Alex was doing when we were growing up in high school and stuff, and after that. So you know, we were going, trying to get as much of- to give it some insight into it, and try to film a little bit of la barrio, not that, as much as we could. But everything, the settings were in the barrio that I grew up in. And, so we never really got to film a lot of scenery and stuff because, again, we couldn't really operate that camera. We didn't have steady cams. We didn't have anything like that. So it was everything off the shoulder 116:00or on a tripod. So it you know, there was a lot, it was more in a kind of roundtable you know, kind of thing that... Sabino would pick my brain. "Well, what did Alex... What did you think about this?" Or I would pick his brain, like, "How about Vietnam? You were in Vietnam, you know." "Well, this happened or this happened." And those scenes from Vietnam were from him, you know, and how the, you know, they felt, his mother felt, how you know, most of the mothers felt about their sons being in Vietnam, coming back in coffins and stuff like that. [INT: And then you'd organize the scene.] Yes. [INT: And then you'd get to the location and rehearse?] Yeah we'd... No. [LAUGHS] [INT: No?] Well, I mean, we would rehearse it, like I say, almost while we were shooting it because we would cover it- They had to memorize two or three lines. I was usually the one who had to memorize more. They'd memorize two or three lines, went through their lines, and basically sometimes we'd forget. Okay. We'd remember. "You're going 117:00to say this. Remember?" But the thing was that we did three takes because the film was expensive. And I was... We did three takes. We would take a wide shot, you know, like he and I talked and we had one shot, we had a wide shot. And then we would turn the camera on you and shoot your scenes and yours. And then turn the camera on like on mine, and shoot the same thing on mine. And then from there we could edit, you know, go to a close up or... And that's why sometimes you know, it doesn't, you know, you go from- How did he jump from- Well, we didn't have no other footage. [LAUGHS] So we had to. We had to go to the cockroach on the floor or something. You see that in RUN, TECATO. Sometimes you know, well, it goes with it, you know. It makes sense. Put that cockroach in there. So cutaways and things like that, the B-Rolls, we didn't have too much 118:00because we, you know, the film- Sometimes we would stop filming for months till we could afford to buy film. And you know, pay for whatever little we had done. And so the film took almost two years, you know, while we were filming it. [INT: So '74 to '76?] '76. [INT: More or less.] You know, like '75. Yeah. You know. It took almost two years to film. Because we were haphazard. We weren't really you know, on a straight, trying to shoot all in one month or two, something like that.

01:57:59:05

INT: Wow. And so when you say three takes, you would do a wide shot, the scene all the way through, and then you, the scene all the way through, and then the reverse?

EG: Right. See, because we took the wide shot- somebody would mess up, but that's all right because I'll pick it up over here, or I'll pick it up over 119:00here. So that was the easiest thing for me to do. [LAUGHS] And I still, you know, like I tell my son, I said, "Ah. Just do it that way. You know, get this guy." And then you can edit it, you know? [INT: And Sabino was the cinematographer?] Sabino was cinematographer, and the writer. [INT: Wow. And was he helping to direct, because you're acting?] Yeah. Like we were like a team. You know, we were a team. You know, he was the best partner I ever had you know, in business of any kind. [INT: What do you think the final budget was versus the final net that you made?] I think, you know... I'm not talking about paying expenses or I mean, you know, we didn't pay anybody, myself. I'm talking about actors, or cameramen, the crew. So those are not accounted in. Actual money that came out of my pocket, because I'm the one that had to come up with the money. We're looking at probably around $20,000 dollars or less, with the editing and the filming. And that's because I had to you know, spend a lot of time at Trinity, because they're the ones that helped me. Jack Landman also helped me edit. That's why I said, I had good relationship with the kids at Trinity. I always want to give them credit because there was a William Butt, the grandson of HEB Butt, was one of my cameraman assistant or PI, or whatever, you know, at the time. They all wanted to hang around because they were film students. And then Jack Landman became you know, sold a lot of, went into... a millionaire. You know, sold computers and stuff. And then Smith, Steve Smith, he owned Mass 120:00Frame there in San Antonio. And I think he just sold it recently. And another, you know- He was a real hippie. Now they're all Republicans. [LAUGHS] They were... You know, because they were more hippie back then, and doing their thing. And now, you know, I don't see them too much. The only one I've kept up a little bit more was Jack Landman. But I respect that man immensely, you know. And he was the one that kind of controlled all the other kids, because he was a student instructor. And we got to go to some nice parties with him, Sabino and I, because, it was interesting. That's why we got that joke, "Aye, they want to fill their quota of Chicanos..." [LAUGHS] So they invited us because you know, I got to go to some really you know, nice parties. It was all these rich kids. And I didn't know them at the time, who they were, because my focus was on the film. But then later I find out, you know, this guy's this... One of the guys that was my cameraman when we did LA ONDA CHICANA, the big concert, 72-hour concert in 121:00'77, his father was the director of the FBI. Sessions. William Sessions. [INT: Willie Sessions.] William Sessions. His son was a student, I mean a cameraman. Did that shoot for me. And I always think that he's the one that got me into trouble with the FBI. [LAUGHS] Because I assumed that his father just you know, wanted to know who the hell his son was... [INT: Hanging around with.] Because the FBI, you know, ended up following me later on in life.

02:01:23:16

INT: You ended up using a lot of the equipment from Trinity University on the editing stages, right?

EG: Yeah. That's why in all my first three movies you'll see credit for Trinity University.[INT: Oh, okay.] They're the ones that, on all three films they kind of helped me out. Not so much in RUN, TECATO, but they still, you know, Jack was always around to help me. He became a good friend at the time. And, but Trinity... I was, after I started, I met Jack, Bill Hayes told the film department that I could check out equipment, use equipment, edit, as long as a 122:00student at Trinity University was with me. So that's how I found that out. Jack you know, would help me, but Jack couldn't be with me around that time. So he started bringing some of his friends that were students, that wanted to hang around, or do what we were doing. So I remember, they turned me down the second time I went to get the camera. And then Mr. Hayes came and said, "No. As long as he's got a student." Because the lady that didn't want to let me take out equipment. He felt very bad, Mr. Hayes, that they had turned me down. But he corrected the lady. And after that I never had any problems. And so what I would 123:00do, I would stay, when we were editing, I would literally have one of the students stay overnight. I would stay at night because that's when the room was available. [INT: In the editing room? Yeah?] Because during the day the kids were using it. I had last choice. But at night, nobody was there. So sometimes Jack would visit and stay with me, or somebody. But somebody would be there and also help me edit, because I didn't know how to use the, back then, it was the- [INT: A Steenbeck, no?] Yeah. Well, you know, you had to put your rolls and so all these kind of things, you know. They were the ones that had to be there. So and the first film was, and part of the second was edited, mostly at Trinity. Until I bought my own Moviola. It cost me $12,000 later on, that I bought my Moviola. But no. That's why, No. Trinity was very, very helpful there. And it's interesting because of all the schools, that's you know, the rich school. That's the you know, the school that you would least expect it. I would least expect the help. I would expect maybe San Antonio College or SAC or somebody else to come out. It was Trinity University. That's interesting.

02:03:53:16

INT: So how much do you think you grossed, because it was very successful...

EG: We grossed, and the reason I know that it was over $300,000 is because one of the actors that came out in the movie was the head of the SBA, Small Business Administration out of Corpus. Gilbert Galvan. So when he met me, and we made the movie, after we made the movie, he liked- well, why not? He'd been part of it, so he liked what we were doing done. He said, "Efrain, have you ever thought about you know, applying for a loan to make a big movie money-wise?" I said, "No. I never been a business person. I don't even know how to make any kind of proposal, whatever." He said, "Well, let me, give me all the-" He started getting all my information and you know, he put it all together. And that's when he showed me, he said, "Do you know that you've already grossed over $300,000 dollars?" Whoooo! You know. Where'd it go? [LAUGHS] Where is it? So he told me, with this- Anyway, he put it in and he was sure I was going to get the loan. But 125:00then, like he goes through the process, the last process, he told me, "Efrain, we just found out that they will not lend to make a movie." At the time, they would not, SBA would not give you money for a movie. So that shot that down. But he had done all the paperwork, so we knew you know, more or less how much we had done in those three months that, more or less, that we had control of the movie. So that's like $300,000 dollars is the total gross that we made. Which was a lot at that time, but at the same time, you know, I think that we lost like, according to California, we lost at least half a million dollars. Because they had set it up that I was going to screen all the Mexican theaters, starting from San Diego all the way to San Francisco, all the Mexican theaters. And at the time, they were expecting me to be out there, because you know, word was 126:00starting... I think they showed it in- You know, because that was, after we screened it, there also was demand at the university I think in San Francisco somewhere. They showed it up there. And then they showed it at some festival or something in New York or whatever. I didn't go, but you know, I gave these white people that came by and talked to me. They took it up there to New York and they sent me some nice comments about, you know, it'd been received or whatever. But we didn't go. And I didn't go to San Francisco, but then a politician that became a state representative, Gustave Mont [PH] or something. I forgot the name, but anyway. He had been a student and he was the one that had got it when he was a law student. And they got my film to raise some funds for the law group up in San Francisco. So you know, it was getting out, but you know, we had no really control. The only thing that we did was what, in the theaters, and that was $300,000 then when I sold the rights to it. You know, they just stopped it. And, but they got me, hurt me also because they convinced me to go and make AMOR 127:00CHICANO- Well, not- Make a love story. You know. And that's the movie that's a love story, you know, so we came up, I came up with this love story. I gave Sabino credit, but Sabino left halfway through the movie. That's when- Not because of him, but his brother and I got into you know, some misunderstandings. So you know, Sabino didn't want to have any problems. He didn't want to create problems for me. So you know, he apologized, said, you know, "You're not- My brother and you are not going to get along, so..." So we split up halfway through PLEASE DON'T BURY ME ALIVE. [INT: Really? Filming it?] Filming it. We were filming it. And we were still writing it as we went along. But anyway, we did it and they had promised money and you know, that I was going to make money. And then they were going to advance me some money. But when they took the movie, they kind of lost communications. It was hard for me to communicate any more. And I was waiting for money because here I had taken the little money that I had left, and invested in doing, and we were in Laredo filming. And then they finally just flat out say, "We're not going to give you no money. We're not..." 128:00Kind of, "Stop bothering us," you know, kind of thing. And that was Jesus Sotomayor in Mexico and all that. So I said, "Whoa." You know, so here we are stuck. So PLEASE DON'T BURY ME ALIVE was, I mean, CHICANO LOVE'S FOREVER was shot in 16, and we never blew it up to 35. And because I had gotten some advance money from Austin and San Antonio at the time, when we were filming because I needed money. But because of the hit of the first one, Austin was one of the first ones that gave me $5,000 dollars, advanced me. And then San Antonio advanced me another $5,000. So now here I have $10,000 dollars that I've already spent, and I don't have a print to give to the theaters. And Austin is getting on my case because you know, here's, well the time's already passed by, and 129:00they've already given me $5,000. And he owned a theater and a drive-in that they own here. And so I remember they kind of threatened suing me or whatever. And in the contract, it said that I had to turn in a print. It didn't say 35. It didn't say- It just said that I had to turn in a print. That's initially what I read. [LAUGHS] I said, "Okay. You want the movie?" Because I said, "Give me, you know, a little more time so I can get money to get the movie blown up and you know, finish some more work they wanted to do." But it had already passed, so... I remember I came to Austin and, "Where's the 35 millimeter?" "Here it is. But the contract doesn't say... You want it. Here it is." So I had bought a projector that, you know, those 16 millimeter projectors that could... far enough. It's not going to be that good quality or whatever. You hook up to the sound and 130:00that's how we did it. We would literally go to theaters and we would hook up our 131:00own projector to show because people would go, "Where's the film?" "Oh, here it is." "Oh, don't worry. We got our projector too." [LAUGHS] So we showed it in San Marcos, in El Paso in the Mexican Theater, in a lot of theaters. But we had to send David and myself to go show the movie. I mean, we had literally be there to run because the projectionist was... "Where's the 35 millimeter?" "No." And we would hook up to the sound and we put the projector, and we'd blow it up. And it was kind of faded, whatever. But hey, we showed the movie and I got out. We didn't make that much money out of it because you know, the owners were pissed off, you know. And then in Michigan, you can't show, you know, movies because of the unions, you know. I could never show my movies. When I went out there, I had to go through you know, private, like at churches, church halls and things like that. [INT: But no theaters?] No theaters, because only, you know, the Mexican theater, but that didn't have that many at the time in Michigan. It was more in Chicago and other places. In Chicago, I showed it in the theater, but not in Michigan.

02:10:59:12

INT: Let me ask you about LA ONDA CHICANA, which is a concert that you put on and then you filmed a part of the concert. And that was the next project after PLEASE DON'T BURY

ME, right?

EG: That was in '77. Correct. [INT: Yeah, '77, so-] See, what happened with LA 132:00ONDA CHICANA, I did LA ONDA CHICANA first. After I did PLEASE DON'T BURY ME ALIVE, you know, the Tejano musica was really at its prime. Little Joe and everybody. I mean, they were drawing thousands of people. So I became friends with them because you know, I knew some of them. Anyway, we started getting more- And I really got into the music around that time, into the Tejano musica. So I started meeting the people. And I liked the music. All the way from the '70s I started liking the music. Stephan Jordan in '72 when I met him. And you know, so I really got into the Chicano music. But again, I always saw big. So you know, they were having these dances. I said, "You know, Woodstock had all these people. Why can't we have our own you know, big outdoor concert?" Nobody ever had a Chicano outdoor concert, you know. So I said, "You know what?" These guys from Port Lavaca, Justo Chavana [PH] and I forgot the other guy's name. But anyway, they were putting this show together and they asked me, "Efrain, would you be the MC for this big outdoor concert in Port Lavaca?" That was in '76. It was a bicentennial. And I said, "Yeah. I'll go film that." Trinity students went to help me film that one, too. Jack went with me that time. And we went out there and it's in the middle of nowhere. And there's policemen. You know, they only expected like 10,000. I think we ended up with 4,000 people or whatever. But they had all these bands. But our camera broke. I had my camera and my CB, 133:00so I only got to film four people with Little Joe, La Fabrica, Snowball and Company, and Laura Canales, who was the first famous La Musica Tejana. And so I got this [INAUDIBLE]. There was a whole bunch of other bands. But you know, I really loved being the MC and all these people. And I said, "You know what? I want to do that." I started thinking of doing a TV show because around that time, there was no Tejano musica on TV. So I met Emilio Nicolas, who's the founder of Univision. He's the founder, started Univision, Channel 41 in San Antonio. At that time he had Channel 41. And he asked me, "Efrain, you know, let's do a, because I have... you know, do it in my- We can do it on TV. You want to do a TV show?" I said, "Well, I want to do a musical TV show." And I had just done PLEASE DON'T BURY ME ALIVE, so I just stopped and I went to- while I 134:00was working on the next movie, I said, "Let's do this." So I invested some of my funds into- He wanted to pay me some money. I said, "No, no. I'm going to get the dough and I'm going to pay for it." So they had to get a remote. Back then it was like a $1,000 dollars, $1,500 dollars to bring those big cameras and the remote outside or whatever. So we did it at Randy's Rodeos, it holds like 2,000 people in the big dance hall there. So I did seven shows. [LAUGHS] They became real popular. They were the number one hit on the TV, but I wasn't making money because stupid, I thought I was going to make money. And then I started paying the bands and everything. So I ended up losing money. So after the second one- [INT: Was the money from the profits from PLEASE DON'T BURY ME ALIVE?"] Yeah. from PLEASE DON'T BURY ME ALIVE. So you know, we started doing this TV show called LA MEJOR MUSICA TEJANA CON EFRAIN GUTIERREZ there in San Antonio. And then, like I said, TV-wise, we got in all the local area. But I wasn't making 135:00money, so I said, "You know what? That's it." And when I did PLEASE DON'T- I mean, when I did LA MUSICA TEJANA, it was supposed to be LA MEJOR MUSICA CHICANA CON EFRAIN GUTIERREZ because I was very into musica mejor Chicana. So I said, "I want to do that MUSICA CHICANA CON EFRAIN GUTIERREZ , but then they told me that Mexico did not want that word Chicano. So we had to change it to LA MEJOR MUSICA TEJANA CON EFRAIN GUTIERREZ . So I did that for the TV show. And then when Emilio found out that I was going to be doing that concert in '76 in Port Lavaca in the summer, he said, "Efrain, you filmed it." I said, "Yes. We got about twenty minutes out of it." He says, "SIEMPRE DE DOMINGO..." No, no. No, not SIEMPRE DE DOMINGO. There was a show out of Mexico that, during every Sunday. It was a big TV show that was a number one hit in Mexico. And he had a lot of 136:00music. And you know, so they asked. They would like to have the first-time show Chicano musica in their show in Mexico City. And he said, "Efrain, would you like to be the first one to show Tejano Musica in Mexico?" I was all excited. I said, "Yeah, man." I got the footage. I got everything. It's called LA MEJOR MUSICA CHICANA CON EFRAIN GUTIERREZ." I forgot the name of it. He was a very popular man over there. I never met him, but I'm saying, but the word came back to me. He said, "Well, they loved it. They sent it up there and they loved it. They're going to show it on TV at certain... But they want you to change the title." I said, "What do you mean?" He said, "They want you to change it to LA 137:00MEJOR MUSICA TEJANA... or LA ONDA TEJANA, not LA ONDA CHICANA. They don't want the word Chicano in it." I said, "Look, why do they..." "Well, you know, they will show it if you take out the word." I said, "Look, tell him they can show it the way it is or don't show it at all." "Efrain, but..." "You made me change Chicano out of the title for the movie, I mean, for the TV show. I'm not going to do it for La Mejor Musica, I mean forLA ONDA CHICANA. So either they show it like that, or I don't give a damn if they don't show it." So they didn't show it. That first one was... I'm trying to remember. Lopez, a little girl that came over. The first Chicana that came out there after that. But we would have been first one to have that on that TV show way back in '76 when they had out of Mexico [PH] they had a TV show. But anyway, so we did that concert. And I liked it. I fell in love with it, you know, that little, the one that, the LA ONDA CHICANA. So then I said, "Why not blow it up, man? I mean, let's do a whole weekend of a concert." So I started contracting the bands, contacting, but I went by handshakes, you know. And I got Little Joe. I got Freddy Martinez, Latin Breed, Ruben Ramos. I had everybody like that was anybody in the Musica Tejana. 138:00I almost had... They weren't Tejano, but I had met Mike Allsup, the lead guitar for the Three Dog Night. But at the time, they had split up in '74, whatever. But he had a group called USO, or USA or something. And he offered to come and play over here. But I had to pay plane ticket for four guys. I didn't have the money. So I said, "I'm sorry, Mike. I can't do it, you know." I had met him before. So I had all these people. And I thought we were going to have a monster thing. You know, I went all over the country. I went to California. I got bands from California to come down. I went to Indiana, came on the Mexican radios and stuff like that, promoting it. All over Texas. I mean, I was going to Houston, anywhere to give me an opportunity. I would talk on the radio. But then everything started, you know, bad mouthing that it wasn't going to happen. That 139:00the musica, they were saying it was a bunch of bullshit, that they hadn't agree to work with me. And one of them was Little Joe. So you know, after he had given me his word and his handshake. So you know, people started, so I started getting scared because, even the site we were going to have the concert at, 72-hour concert. You know, the guy pulled the site. I had to go rent another 200 acres while we were, and change the poster. You know, it just started getting so crazy that you know... I got into a couple of, you know people, that now are friends, but you know, they were bad mouthing that it wasn't going to happen. I said, "You know, you all are hurting me, man. It is going to happen. And if he say he's not, that's- I'll deal with him later, but don't be talking on the radio and saying we're not." So I beat up a couple of you know, DJs. One in [INAUDIBLE] and one in San Antonio. They were bad mouthing me on the radio. I went and told them to stop. They wouldn't stop. So when they got out, I... One punch, but anyway. I got my punch in for each one of them. But they stopped 140:00talking. And one of them became my friends afterward. But what I'm saying is they didn't understand you know. And at the time, that's when I was very strong with La Raza Unida and Ramsay Muniz. And I was supporting Ramsay Muniz big time. And right about then is when Ramsay got busted. And then everything just fell apart. That's when half La Raza just gave up on the Chicano movement and... you know, you know, even, I got disappointed with a lot of people that used to be real Chicano and all of a sudden- Especially when Ramsay got sent to prison. They didn't want to support us anymore. And that happened right at the peak. And I never understood why, but at the concert, we had helicopters. We had media saying that it was going be... drugs, and you know, there's going to be all kind of bad concert. I had the Washington Post come down. I had Patolsky [PH] from the Texas Monthly show up. And I'm trying to remember the other guy from the San 141:00Antonio Express. And I remember, we opened up. We started on a Thursday night, and Friday morning there's nobody. Thursday night there was just a few people. And Friday they had given a beer license. Then they took it away. And then my brother sold a beer, like, somebody came. He says, "Sell me a beer." He says, "No, I can't sell it to you, but I'll give it to you at the price it cost me." So as soon as he did that, they took him and arrested him, because they had pulled out, they had given our beer license on Thursday, and then they pulled it out on Friday, because people had complained or whatever. And then, you know, finally a policeman comes, the highway patrol comes and he says, "You know what, Efrain? I just wanted to tell you that somebody said you might not have any people here." He said, "Nobody knows how to get here any more." I said, "What do you mean?" He said, "Well, this morning, our Captain called us in and told all of us to go down, tear every sign that you have out there on the highway." I said, "But why? They've had concerts before and people put up their signs on the highway, you know, giving directions. And nobody used to say anything." He said, 142:00"Yeah. But there's a law in the books that says you have to be 50 feet away from the highway." I said, "But aye!" Said, "Yeah, we've never enforced it. But our Captain said for you we're going to enforce it, and we just tore down everything. I came to tell you because I'm a Chicano, just like you. I'm a police, I'm a DPS," Mendoza, whatever his name was. He said, "But I just wanted to you to know." He said, "You better go do something out there because the people don't know how to get in here." And then the Washington Post said, "Look, we came from the Washington Post because we heard that you're going to have like 30, 40,000 Chicanos out here you know, in a concert, and the word is that it ain't going to happen, that they're not going to allow it to happen." I said, "What are you talking about?" He said, "No. The powers that be politically, you know, you don't think that after they finally got you know, La Raza Unida, you know, especially with Ramsay in trouble, that they're going to allow to have 30, 50,000 Chicanos come together like that? It ain't going to happen. And that's 143:00why I'm here. And I'm telling you." And then a guy from the Senator Express wrote an article, told me, "Efrain, this is... you know, what happened?" I said, I could never understood. And the guy that was doing my camera work was William Sessions' son, you know. And so after the concert was a complete flop, I lost $35,000 on that deal. So you know, I just couldn't believe it, what had happened. And all, you know, bad feelings and corajes con musicos, and with Little Joe, I lost contact with him. I wanted to kick his ass at the time. And then you know, I lost this...

02:23:26:21

EG: So I had met the people from California, from a band and when they came there, he told me, "If you ever want to go to California," but he was in Modesto, northern California. I says, "Hey, I have a little studio." You know, he's a band recording. Go, I like- Because I let him stay at my apartment. So, sure. I had split up from my girlfriend at the time. And she was mad, and I 144:00don't blame her because I was doing the concert and my third daughter was born from my second, Josie Faz, with Mona Lisa. And she was mad because I had been out, and I came in two days late, after my daughter was born. And she never forgave me for that. And then we were having problems. So I said, "You know what? I'm going out of here." And I left and I went to Modesto. I just got a one-way ticket. I took 16-millimeter print that we had of PLEASE DON'T BURY ME ALIVE, 16-millimeter print that we had of AMORE CHICANO. And I got on the plane. I told him, "Can I stay with you?" "Sure." So I told him, "I'm broke. I'm just..." "Don't worry." So I went up there. I stayed with him in his house for two days, but it was a small apartment. So I decided just to live in the studio. And I lived in a little studio, 16-track studio that he had. And I you know, met all the... And he had a band, so he would go play in Modesto, all up in northern California. And we would show the movie. And that's how I made money, you know, showed the movie. And he would play. And you know, we collected money. And I stayed out there for about six months on and off. So Brian Hendricks, it was the 145:00producer with Universal Studios contacted me, and I went up to Universal Studios, had a meeting. And he told me, "Efrain, we would like to make a movie with you. Universal Studios would like..." And I said, "Okay." And I realized that they didn't know that I didn't know shit about filmmaking. [LAUGHS] You understand? I mean, that's the way I felt. And he's telling me you know, "This is how it works." They had like, I think Cheech and Chong went through there. And then those people that did ANIMAL HOUSE. That's when they were filming that show, the second movie that it was a flop. 1836. Anyway, some kind of movie. Had planes and what have you. I mean, I didn't see the movie, but when they were filming there, he told me, because of the film that they did, they literally can do whatever the hell they want to in Universal Studios. I mean, they literally did whatever they wanted to. And I said, "Well, how does it work?" He said, "Well, look. What we want you to do, you know... Do you have ideas of scripts 146:00that you would want to work on?" And at the time I had GREGORIO CORTEZ that was thinking of doing a western. But I also wanted to do something around drugs. And they didn't want anything to do with drugs. And I had the idea of doing something because of my friend, you know, what happened. He said, "No, we don't want anything to do with drugs, gangs, you know." I said, "Okay." I remember I even had this professor that wrote a treatment, I didn't even know what a treatment was. And he asked me, "Well, can you give us a treatment for..." I said, "Okay. I'll get you GREGORIO CORTEZ ." I'd already done all the research on it. I had written you know, the ideas, what I wanted. I'll get GREGORIO to help that, that's a movie I wanted to do. And they asked me for a treatment, a 20-page treatment. I said, "Shit. I don't even have 10 pages." So I called this friend of mine. I forget his name. He passed away. He was at UTSA. Anyway. He 147:00wrote the treatment for me, and shipped it to me through the airplane. And I picked it up at the airport, gave it to him. And they said, "Well, Efrain, you know, what we want you to do, we would like for you to come and spend a year through the program. I said, "What do you mean, you know?" He said, "No. We will you know, give you like..." What do you call it? A fellowship or whatever. And Cheech and Chong were there at the time, you know, also had gotten in. And they were giving these kind of things for young filmmakers, whatever, at that time. But they knew it. I wasn't- And I was scared because these people are talking to me like I really know what the hell I'm doing. And then they tell me, "Well, what you do here, you know, we'll show you like through the process." What I wanted to learn like that. They were finally willing to give it, like in a year's time, you know. "You will get to learn how to direct. You will get to learn how to do camera work. You'll learn how to edit. And you'll learn, you 148:00know, you'll write the script. You will... By the time you finish here, you'll have a million dollars to do a whole movie and you know, here at Universal." I got so scared because I said, "How in the hell am I going to come- I don't even know anything about directing or doing anything. I mean, we're doing it from what I see, not what I know." So I got kind of panicky, but I said, "Well, I don't know if I want to..." And "Why do-" you know, I started asking questions. "Well, how does it work?" So I had two meetings with him while I was up there. And then I said, "You know what, Mr. Hendricks? I wish I could just, you know, give me the money. I'll go do the movie. We'll do it." But to me, to have to do it in front of you all and everything, that was the scary part. I said, "They're going to find out how ignorant... You know, we don't know what we're doing." Even if I could bring Sabino with me, you know, we don't know filmmaking. I didn't tell him that, but that was going through my head.

02:28:48:02

EG: And that's when I came back to San Antonio, and my brothers, I had one brother who was involved as a drug dealer, and my cousin. And I had been in San Antonio. So when I came back, they were busted. And I had been back two weeks. And they picked me up, too. I was with one of the other brothers. And he was holding three ounces of cocaine or something in a tire that he was taking to Houston. And I didn't even know about it. Long story, but I was supposed to be an MC in Seguin with Rosita Ornelas who used to be the radio, for years there. And she had asked me, Los Traviesos. There was a Tejano group that I had met, and they had died in a car accident. And they were doing a big fundraiser in Seguin in '78. And she asked me to be the MC. And I said, "Sure." So but when I was at my Mom's house, my girlfriend, she didn't want to go because she must have been feeling bad. She had to drive me all the way to Seguin. So I said- My 150:00brother showed up and he was going to Houston, but he didn't tell me why. He said, "I'm going to Houston." And I said, "You know what? Seguin is along the way. Why don't you drop me off in Seguin and I'll get a ride because I know all the musicos, so any one of them could give me back a ride. And that way Josie can go home." "Sure." So we're in the car, in the pick-up-, he's driving a pick-up. And we just get in, leaving San Antonio when we start seeing all kinds of police and everything around us. And he just tells me, "Just keep your mouth shut." I said, "Well, what's going on?" He says, "I got something. It's mine. Don't worry." I said... And I remember they pointed a rifle at me, and I was drinking a Big Red and I'm- a bottle of Big Red and I'm looking at the gun right here, because they had us surrounded. And he told me to put... And I didn't know what the hell he was talking about till my brother dropped the bottle because they were hitting the window. And then they, you know, it's at night already and 151:00we're out on the highway going out of San Antonio. And they just come on in from all over. And then they get us out of the car. And then they put us in front of all these headlights in the car. And then they get this guy covered in a jacket. And then he points at both of us. "Him and him." And I said, "What?" And I'm asking the guy, you know. And they're DEA. I said, "What happened?" He said, "They just identified you." I said, "Oh, wait a minute, sir. I know he doesn't know me. Please, you know, have him come take a good look at me." He said, "He just identified both of you." I said, "Please, just bring him back because I know he doesn't know me. I'm not involved in this." So he did me a favor and brought the guy back, came back, and he looked at us. And then he pointed at my brother, said, "Him, yes." And he looked at me and said, "Him, no." I said, "Oh, wow." So well, anyway, they picked us up and then they took us to where they interrogate you and you know. And it's like a carpet area like this. And they 152:00got all these lights. And they walk you through like about a 100 feet or whatever. But you're just going by nothing but light. Like a carpet, you know. [LAUGHS] And then they have all these people on the sides looking at you. Undercover and what have you. And I could hear my name, "Efrain Gutierrez, Efrain." And the DEAs, they're right on each side of me saying, "Oh, you know, 153:00they know you." I said, "I don't know who they are, but..." And then stupid me, the next one that said, "Efrain," I went out like that to see who the hell said my name. The guy almost hit me, and said, "Are you trying to be smart?" I said, "Well, he's calling my name. I don't know who he is. I can't see." "You trying to be..." Anyway, then they interrogated me for a while. And did I know this? And I'm trying to be ignorant. I don't know. And then they showed me pictures of my cousin. I said... and people that I knew. And I said, "Look, you're showing me all these people that are bad. You know, I know Bishop Flores. [LAUGHS] Show me good people, man." But anyway, he talked a lot, but he don't say much anyway. So they had me there for a while, and offered to let me go if I would come back and you know, report to them. I said, "Hey, man. I can't do shit like that." They said, "Well, you're going to be locked up." I said, "Why? I didn't do anything." He said, "Well, you're going to have to go to court, you know. If you cooperate," and I said, "Well, I guess I'm going to jail." So I spent 30 days at the county jail. I signed four autographs when I went there. [LAUGHS] And then when I was in there, you know, I changed my name. I said my name was Abraham. And my brother who was six foot, big, you know, bald-headed and big moustache. And he's the one... And they make him a trustee. And I'm this good looking little, young, 130 pound. You know, and they put me in with all the killers and everything. And I go, "Man, what?" I was afraid. I mean, I was. And then they tell me they're going to beat me up because I didn't talk. I was all, I was all 154:00so scared shitless. Till one of the guys that had been picked up earlier, the main guy, Juan Diaz, who I knew, one of my brother's friends. He sent word down. He was in the, not to bother. They called me la chavalone [PH]. "Don't bother the chavalone." And then everybody, "Who the hell are you, man? Got word not to touch you." "I don't know, man, you know. He's a friend of my brother, I guess. But my name's Abraham and I'll be here..." But as the time went by, like the first week goes by and my name didn't come out in the papers, didn't come out in the news. And so I'm going, "Oh, please. Get me out of here." And met Garcia, whose son is now a federal judge, who was- He wasn't a lawyer. He was going to law school. He's now a federal judge. Was my lawyer and he told me, "Efrain, it's just that you have a name now," because it was '76, the movie's just come out. He said, "You're going to be all right. You just have to... It's what they did. They have a stack. They put you at the bottom. So they're going to keep you as long as they can, but eventually you're going to be free because you have nothing to do with it. Your brother's saying you had nothing to do with it. You know, so... And all these people, you know, none of them is claiming you, so, 155:00but it's going to be a while." Sure enough. I stayed there a month. But after the first week- It was funny, because nothing is happening. And I'm in the... They're like, bunks like that, you know. The big TV over there. And then all the bunks. And I'm in- The doors out to get out the gate out here. And I'm in the very top bunk because I had got in a fight with a short little Mexican that, but he was going up for murder or something. And the other people tell me, "Efrain, you just had word come, but that guy's going to kill you at night. He's going to stab you." So I would sleep at the top of the bunk. He was on the bottom. And I was going, "Oh, shit." You know. Reading by the light. I mean, I was so scared. And then I remember I was reading... It was about, the news came up at 10:00 o'clock, so we're all watching the news. And everybody's looking that way. I'm on the bunk and the TV's over there. And then I hear my name. I turn around and there on the screen looking back is my face with syringes and joints, you know. They made it look real bad. "Efrain Gutierrez, the Chicano filmmaker has just 156:00been under a three hundred thousand..." [LAUGHS] "Oh. Why'd they do that?" You know, like... And but I was more scared, now what the hell are these guys going to do on me? They're going to kick the shit out of me. Because they're all looking like this at the TV. And I'm. And then, it was funny because I remember they all just turned their heads. "That's him up there." "Hey, man, how come you're-" "I'm sorry." "No, man. Hey, man." Somebody had- One had seen or heard about the movie and then, you know, "Hey, you're that guy that did that movie." Then I would go talk to my family that came to visit me, you know, when you get visitors. And I would be, "Hey, Ma. Hey, say hi to my Mom." [LAUGHS] But I stayed a month and I went to court. Judge Wood dropped all the cases. You know, they had to dismiss everything. But they did give me and then, after that you 157:00know, my name was ruined in San Antonio because even the people that knew me, you know, "Oh, man. Just another, you know..." You know, they just... "Turned out bad, you know." Like, had to get... So instead of defending, I couldn't argue. I couldn't say because you know, my brother was involved and I didn't want to explain. And when I tried it seemed to make it worse, so I said, "You know what? Uh, screw all of you, you know."

02:37:11:11

EG: But while I was there, I wrote RUN, TECATO, RUN. I mean, I got the idea. And I did RUN, TECATO because I saw that the majority of the people there were there for drug-related problems. And the majority were Chicanos. And you know, the little stories that I heard. And of course, I'd seen Alex, and I had cousins, you know, and my brothers. So that's when it really hit me, like how bad you know, the drugs were affecting our community, how bad they were affecting you know, Chicanos. So I decided then and there that I would do, I didn't care what, 158:00but I was going to make a movie dealing with a drug addict and you know, what they go through, and what the problems that affect them. And when I came out, that's you know, that's what I concentrated on. And I raised $24,000 dollars and I made PLEASE DON'T BURY ME ALIVE. I mean RUN, TECATO, RUN. [INT: Run, Tecato, Run.] That was the third movie. [INT: For $24,000? Wow.] Cash money. And I'm not counting, you know... $24,000. [INT: Wow. And how long did it take to make that?] Now, that one, we did it pretty fast. That one, we did it like in about three months I think. [INT: And you were writing it as well? Writing, directing?] I was writing it, also directing. [INT: And co-producing.] Co-producing. [INT: And acting.] Distributing. I mean, because we didn't have nowhere else, you know... And so we had to go do it ourselves. In San Antonio, like I told you, I was scared in high school. But then, when I started hanging around with Alex, I just want to cover this, hopefully my... People will understand in the future. But right around the '70s was when the drug scene 159:00really got big in San Antonio. And because of my brothers, they started dealing you know, marijuana, and then heroin, and then cocaine. My brother and my cousin. And then they stayed in cocaine. I remember cocaine when it first came 160:00in into San Antonio, was given literally away. And nobody was really, and then like not even a year later, everybody's doing it. Two years later, just about every musician is doing it, you know. So it really just blew up. And I had worked as a bartender for Lucio Castro. Lucio Castro was the guy that founded the Mexican mafia in Leavenworth. When I was working, when he got shot. He killed the other guy, but he got shot with a 22. And then not too long after that, he went to Joliet Federal Prison. But when he was there the bullet went to his spine, so they transferred him to Leavenworth. When he got to Leavenworth, he noticed that the Italianos, the Italians controlled Leavenworth. Genovese there, what was the last godfather, I mean, Genovese was there. He was in control of Leavenworth. And when Lucio, he was a big guy and you know, a bad guy. Give him credit, people give him credit for 12 deaths. So he was a bad dude. Anyway, Lucio, and he almost got killed by his friends, too. Lucio was a, you know, but he didn't go as a, he wasn't a bully or gang leader or anything, but when he got there, he realized that hey, you got like about three, 400 Chicanos in here. And you got like 50 Italianos. And yet we're doing all the menial jobs. And all the drug money, the cigarette money, all that is going to the Italians. And that's bullshit. Like, we're the majority. And so he really started like kind of it's a union. This guy telling me, he was more like an 161:00organizer in there. But Mario Cantú, and I heard Mario Cantú but... San Antonio. Mario Cantú was in there with him. And Mario Cantú was the interpreter because he had worked for Genovese. So anyway, when he, Mario went to Genovese and told him, you know, "Everything's going to change. Lucio says that it's flipping over. Now Mexicanas are... And if you don't like it, you know, but you're going to have to accept it." And Genovese,"Yeah, yeah." Wars, okay. "But I'm just going to tell you that Lucio says that look around you. How many Italians do you have in this prison?" About 50 or whatever at the time. "Look around you. How many Mexicans, Chicanos do you have in here?" It was over 400 or whatever. "Okay. If you want to go to war, and you don't want to accept our terms in the morning, every Italian will be dead. Take it or leave it." And Genovese, "[MAKES NOISE]." He said, so Mario said, "When I was leaving," He 162:00said, "Genovese had, you know, like..." Even in Leavenworth, you know, he had his own set-up, you know. Guards and his own people. "Whoa!" he said. So Mario left to go to [TRAILS OFF]. And then he said, "No. We'll accept." And from then on, the Mexican, I mean the Mexicanos more or less controlled Leavenworth. And then from there, the Mexican mafia came out, what we know as the Mexican mafia in Texas. La Eme. The ones that... But see, that became real violent and everything. When it started, it wasn't supposed to be you know, it wasn't for that purpose. But he was the founder, is given credit as being the founder of it.

02:42:23:12

INT: So in San Antonio, I mean, it started gradually. Like you're saying, they're giving the coke away?

EG: They're giving the coke away. [INT: To get you hooked.] See, because I knew a little bit about coke because I had been in California and I had lived in Hollywood, you know. I had a girlfriend that I picked up out of Hollywood High School. And her aunt, Dorothy, you know, we became friends. And eventually I ended up dating the aunt. [LAUGHS] But anyway, too, but Dorothy was somebody connected with, at the time, with doctors, lawyers, everything. And they were 163:00all doing coke. I'm talking about '68, '69? When I was in Hollywood. [INT: Yeah. When you first went.] When I went out there. I mean, and you know, she was older than I was, and she was dating that guy, Murphy, from the... What was that? Ben Murphy. He did a western, two guys, a blond guy. He was the blond guy. Anyway, I forgot the name, but she was dating that guy. And she was a real beautiful lady. And I was just a kid. But I mean, looked young. I was 24 or whatever. But they were all doing coke. And that's when I got exposed to it, you know. But it wasn't really illegal at that, like it became. It was more kind of hush, hush. And I guess the doctors knew about it, and the people that were, I mean, that's the story that I heard, that you know, in California you know, it was in 164:00parties, you know, private parties kind of thing. So when I came, I started dating in San Antonio. [INT: When you came back to San Antonio.] I started dating another white girl that had been from California, whatever. And she was a high school girl, a senior I think. And she's the one that told me how to put coke in, started smoking coke in marijuana. And so I was you know, I knew about it. So when my cousin you know, had coke, he didn't know what to do with it. "Here, give it to me." [LAUGHS] But you know, that was at the beginning, but it was you know, like they would give them an ounce or something you know, to try to give it out. And then, I'm talking about, god, the early '70s. And then Lucio, by the time Lucio came out of prison- He went in in '60-something. By the time he came out of prison, you know, he was one of the first ones that got hooked on it. He was almost doing like an ounce a day you know, because the guy 165:00could afford it. They all just... And I you know, I couldn't... But my brother, my cousins. I mean, everybody just got super hooked on coke. And then I started seeing musicos. I mean, you name it. You know, I don't want to insult anybody, but sometimes, you know, I remember, a promoter say, "I'm getting tired of getting all these Tejano, because instead of getting cash, you have to have like a whole ounce ready for them when they get into town. Because they couldn't carry it. But you know, that's part of the deal, you know. "I'm going to play for you, but you're going to..." So and it just got completely out of hand. So when I did that concert, like I said, I had Sessions. And I don't know if his father, who was the head of the FBI at the time, did it because of who I was, Chicano, you know, doing movies and talking. Or was it because his son happened to be hanging out with me. And I didn't even know who he was until Jack told me. 166:00"Look." At Trinity, there's a building there and it says, you know, whatever, donated by William Sessions. He said, "That's his son. That's his father." And the problem it happened, was because he worked for me three days when we did that concert. And I was supposed to give him $75 dollars a day. And then after the whole... I was broke and I didn't have any money. And then he came to me and asked me if I could give him, pay him. And I felt so bad. And I told Jack, "Oh, shit. You know, William Sessions is asking me for the money, and I don't have you know, the money to pay him." And Jack got mad. He said, "What? He's charging you?" I said, "Well, Jack, he did the work." "Yeah, but he's demanding you to pay?" I said, "Well, I owe him, Jack. But he's asking me for it. And I just, you know... Just tell him to like give me some more time, you know. I'll pay him," but I felt bad because he was a good kid. I didn't, I said, "I don't have the money to pay him, but I am going to pay him." So Jack goes and talks to him and then he comes back, smiles and laughs. I said, "What?" He said, "Don't worry about it, Efrain." I said, "No, but." He says, "No. He just wants you to give 167:00him a check. He's not going to cash it. He just wants to show his Dad that he was working and he got paid." [INT: And he got paid.] I said, "Oh, shit. In that case, I'll make it double the amount." But so I don't know. On the check, it had your name and phone number. So it was easy... So I don't know if they tracked me down, but when they picked me and, that I told you, the DEA, they started checking. They showed me pictures of where I had been. "You'd been in Modesto. You were in," you know, the different parts I had been in California. That's when I said, "Oh my god." I got scared because they had 8x10 glossies you know, with me, you know, just you know, wherever. They took pictures of me in California, in northern California. And that's when they picked me up with my brothers. So I was like, "Oh, man." I got really scared. And I'm assuming it was the FBI. I have never checked. Jose Gutierrez said he was going to check it for me because I said, "I'm afraid to even you know, dig in there," especially back 168:00then. But they did bring a big scare on me. They let me go. Like I said, but I spent 30 days. And it just, you know... That calmed me down a lot.

02:48:05:05

INT: So that experience with the cocaine, and then the drug-growing in the barrio, and your 30 days in the county jail. All of that kind of feeds into RUN, TECATO, RUN, right?

EG: Yes. [INT: And you're determined to make...] I'm determined to make that one. [INT: So what kind of film do you want to make with RUN, TECATO, RUN?] Well, see, I'd had cousins that were addicts. Alex became an addict. I saw Alex always robbing, you know, like, he was a nice guy. Like when I was dating this girl in California, and you know, they were pretty, they had some money, you know. You could tell she came from money. And the mother, Debbie, was really 169:00nice to me. And you know, I would eat at their house and stuff like... So when Alex went to visit me, I took him. And I remember when he visited Debbie's house, he just [MAKES NOISE]. "Hey, like we could make a killing here, man." I had to beg, "Please don't do this shit on me, man." Like you know, and I like... You know, now I don't trust people going to a [INAUDIBLE] because the first thing they would do is, "Chicano, what kind of drugs you got?" [MAKES NOISE.] You know. "How easy the door to get in?" I mean, these are professional people that's... So you know, I wanted to see, but then, you know... They don't mean to be, but once you get hooked, you know, it's an animal you're not going to get it off your back. And you know, it's sad, you know, the lives that they live and the damage that they do. And you know, the people that are in prison, you know, like... The prisons, you know, building prisons all over you know, when it'd probably be easier to educate. So all these kinds of things you know, were going on. And so that's where RUN, TECATO, RUN comes from. And that's why I had to do that film. And then it's all kind of a payback for the involvement that my 170:00brother, and my cousins might have done in their role in the drug scene. I'm not a born-again Christian or you know, I'm not going to go you know, that route. You know, I was born a Catholic. I'm not a good Catholic, you know, but you know, I respect religion, especially Catholic. But I also had gotten with the native, you know, with the Hunab Ku, meaning the ultimate being for the Mayans and you know, so I kind of understood that. So the thing that I did notice that of all the drug addicts, the people that stayed out of it the longest, or can kick it, are really the people that turn religious. Especially like Freddie, I 171:00mean... Oh, the Victory Outreach. That started the Victory Outreach in San Antonio for all the drug addicts and stuff, you know. He came out of... It started in New York with somebody else, a Puerto Rican. And then he also started it in Texas, the Victory Outreach. He already passed away, too. His people that he deals with, and it's all based on being a born-again Christian and devoting your life to Christ. I mean, these are the guys that go around preaching and... Well, those are the people that stay away from it, you know. You have to go kind of to... I mean, there's people that go through all kinds of therapy, and all kinds of methadone and what have you. And they always keep coming back, keep coming back. Not all of them, but the ones that stay away are the ones that join you know, this faith in God, you know, that they turn to God. And basically, that's what I try to show without going, you know, let's say with a Baptist or 172:00Catholic or whatever. I try to go more, you know, I pray to God, but I pray to Hunab Ku. In other words, to kind of, that's who I was more. But to ask me, ask for help. You know, same thing. But the people that stay you know, are the people that you know, like I say, an addict is always an addict. A junkie's always a junkie. But you know, the few exceptions that I've seen have been the people that really commit themselves to God. And that's what, you know, I try to show that. That there might be, you know, a way out for them, you know. And I showed a reverend, who is a real minister. And even with him, like I don't believe in Jesus Christ. You know, hey. [LAUGHS] Jesus Christ is not my God, you know, kind of thing. And here's this guy you know, that's a minister. So you know, but I got him to understand and work. And we worked together pretty well. And he also saw, you know, because he also preaches to addicts and stuff like that.

02:52:51:23

EG: In AMOR CHICANO, like I said, when Mexico took away our rights to PLEASE DON'T BURY ME ALIVE, you know, they had offered, I mean, they had said that they would back us, would help us to do, but they wanted us to do a love story. So we dropped, after three months, distribution of PLEASE DON'T BURY ME ALIVE, they took it over. So I said, "Okay. We'll concentrate on this. That's what they want us to do. And they're going to back us with some money." And I think the total probably was going to be like $100,000 that they were going to be willing to support us with and stuff. So we got very excited, but then we started filming on our own. And nothing happened. Then eventually they just said flat out, you know, like, "Stop bothering us. We're not going to do nothing with you anymore." [INT: So they backed out of the deal altogether?] Yeah. Yeah, I mean, once they got the rights to the movie and everything, and they, they were just-, according to Chon, that's what they wanted. So we're stuck with the movie in Laredo. And I went to Laredo because my ex was very jealous and at that time we'd had some problems. So I decided not to do it in San Antonio, to go do it in Laredo. So we 174:00auditioned in Laredo. And we got you know, the female leads out over there. We took you know, myself and [TRAILS OFF]. But Sabino left and, again, nothing personal. Everything was just, his brother and I were the ones that had the problem. And he went on his own. I went on my own. And then I, like I said, went into RUN, TECATO, but we did- [INT: But you worked on the story and some of the script?] Yeah. We started working on the story. We started, we hadn't finished completely. We still had the ending, exactly how we were going to end it, because we always, Like AMOR CHICANO es para siempre, we used to laugh. Chicano love is forever, but what's forever? And we used to joke, "Or 24 hours, whichever comes first." You know. [LAUGHS] So you know, to me, I said, "Well, we have to kill the character you know, because you know, forever until you die, you know. You can't live forever, you know, but forever... " So that's what, you 175:00know, Sabino left before we did all that. Because we were trying to figure out the ending at that time as we were filming. Because the ending was the one we had to come up with. [INT: So it's your ending?] Yeah. It was my ending. Like I said, most of the, half of the movie was my writing. But again there, since we started with Sabino, you know, I had always wanted to give him the credit because I felt that he was the writer. you know. I respected him immensely. I mean, if you had known Sabino, he was a special person, you know. A very special person. We you know, we communicated. You know, he went back to Eagle Pass, and then ended up working for the government. And worked the office for, what's it? Like footsteps, office down... He was in the Kickapoo reservation. And then from there he went over to Laredo. And that's where he passed away. But just about six months before he died, we did an interview in San Antonio for the Senator Public Library. They had a whole bunch of artists and they included us in it. And they brought us down and we did an interview, and they screened the movie 176:00there in the public library downtown. For, I forget what anniversary, or whatever, but it was a big thing at that time. [INT: I think it's, you know, so you're writing a love story, but it's a very unusual love story. It's a tragic love story, right?] Yeah. And the love story, see, well, to me, again, I had to, and I feel, yeah. I'd get it out of my life, you know, in the stories. You know, you have to, because that's what I know. And to me, well, I had always been you know... I never settled down, even though I was married. And even though I divorced and then I got, lived with you know, I was always getting in trouble because, you know, like I said, I just liked to party I guess with girls. So anyway, when I went to do that movie, we did it in Laredo. And the story to me, the machismo was very big at that time. And you know, It was automatic. I mean, 177:00the men could do whatever they want to. And you know, I was still in that, I guess ingrained in that because of my cousins and my brothers. And you know, we were supposed to be men, and men can do this. And so I you know, I kind of grew up believing in that bullshit. [LAUGHS] That machismo. So, but at the time, I started realizing, wait a minute, you know. You know, when a man, like they say, "Who's making love to your woman?" You know, making love. So you know, that hit because you know, I saw it you know. [LAUGHS] I mean, I could see you know, men thought that they had their, and yet, you know, the girl was probably you know, going out. Because I saw things. So that's why I wanted to show that, you know, that you know, that machismo bullshit you know, is not... So women appreciated that. And a lot of men at first, friends said, "Man, that's not right what you did." [LAUGHS] But you know, no it was just...

02:58:00:07

EG: Also, the school. You know, I was struggling with school, going in and out, dropping in and out. And I was seeing basically, you know, I couldn't concentrate you know, because of work, or I couldn't concentrate because of girl problems. And you know, It was always you know, issues that I could not concentrate. And you know, like again, I went, getting, go to my grades. C, Ds, Bs. I think I may have gotten one A in college, or whatever. But it wasn't, you know, the teachers- Like I tell kids, when I was in, especially St. Philip in '66, the teachers, the professors didn't give a shit about whether you learned or not. And there was no tutorials or tutoring. And mostly our professors were young at that time, because most of the professors were professors because they didn't want to go to Vietnam. And they would literally admit it, you know. Like, "The only reason I'm here with you all is because I don't want to be drafted." 179:00And I took algebra, geometry in college, because, like I said, I was always bright. I just didn't stick with it. I tell you, when I was in high school there was five people that took five years, I mean four years of math and four years of science. I took three and a half years of math and three years, and a half years of science. I took algebra, geometry, trigonometry, and then what they call advanced math at Edgewood. There was no calculus, but it was advanced math. But we knew more than the teacher at that time. So you know, I had to depend on my friends to help us. We were helping ourselves in high school. So I was, like I said, I was the dangly one. So I finally you know, dropped out from math. And then in science, I took science, biology, chemistry, and physics. But again, in physics, I dropped out. We had a good teacher there. But it was just, you know, my mind wasn't there. And I also dropped out. My friend, Johnny, was the salutatorian or valedictorian. Charles Wilburn was the salutatorian, 180:00valedictorian, whatever. These were the smart kids. So like I said, they told me I had a high IQ, and then when I was in California, Dorothy, with Mensa, got me to fill out, and I came out with an IQ of 142. So you know, I knew I had something, but you know, just not in the right package I guess. [LAUGHS] So you know, all those things you know, I tried to put into, you know, the things that people were going through with, you know, especially when you have a wife, and going to school, and work. And then all the girls, the distractions that you get and things like that. So that's what AMOR CHICANO

03:00:41:20

EG: I love the music. See, that's the other thing that, the music was almost all written at the time by Henry Balderrama. He had an orchestra, La Patria, like Little Joe y La Familia. Henry Balderrama y La Patria. And we ended up becoming 181:00compadres. He did all the music for it. I've always been grateful for the musicos that have, because I've always... It's a big part of the films that I did because I've worked with beautiful musicos like Esteban Jordan. Steve Jordan did RUN, TECATO, but Henry Balderrama did AMOR CHICANO, and all the background music almost in like two weeks. You know, got into a studio in like a matter of two weeks. Steve Jordan, same thing. "You know, I want this, I want this, you know. I would need something like this. Or I want to say something like this." And then boom. You know, Steve Jordan, also like in a couple of weeks, you know. [MAKES NOISE] "Here's all the music you wanted." "Oh wow!" When you listen to it. Because I'd just give him the idea and then they come up. So musica, like I said, at the time you know, Tejano musica was big, and I wanted to put that musica out. And I think I'm, you know, even though you know, not too many people seen it or hear it, but whenever people that like that kind of music, and they 182:00hear it, they say, "You know what, Efrain? You put more musica Tejano out than anybody else," meaning in films, in the media like that. Not in the recording, but I'm talking about... Randy Garibay, who I use in LOWRIDER SPRING BREAK EN SAN QUILMAS, he told me, "Efrain, you know, I got paid like $15,000 or something for some movie, soundtrack for..." I think something, a boxing movie or something. He said they paid him a lot of money and they used 17 seconds at the end of BARBACOA BLUES or one of those songs that he did. And I didn't pay a damn thing. [LAUGHS] You know, not because... But he knows I didn't have money I think, and they're into what I was doing, too. So he game me seven songs, you know. And everybody says- I said, "I never pay any of the musicos for their music." The only one I had to pay was Joe King Carrasco from here, from Austin. And it wasn't because of him. It was because I used one of his songs and then I 183:00put it in, when we edited into it, and then I got a letter from his company saying, "Hey, you got to pay $200 for using..." I was going to use two of his songs, so I said, "Shit, no, I'm not going to pay." So I had to pay them just to be able to, so we wouldn't have to re-edit. So I had to pay $200 for Joe King Carrasco, one of his songs. But I've always liked that, la musica and I think the musica, Tejana/Chicana expresses just like country music. It expresses a lot of feeling, and you know, a lot of is kind of, mostly a lot of it is women, and drinking, and what have you. But I mean, you know, there's some beautiful love songs and stories, and stuff like that. And in AMOR CHICANO, you hear a lot of beautiful love songs that come out in it. And I've always been I guess the musica that, of all them that really captures the movie would be AMOR CHICANO ES PARA SIEMPRE. It keeps, the music keeps the whole movie going. So like I said, I 184:00feel bad that we didn't really do justice to it, because we could never blow it up. But you know, we got around with it. And you know. Even though we didn't have a 35-millimeter print, we still screened it, you know, haphazardly and not in focus and things like that. But people at the time you know, still flocked to it, still not as much for the first one or RUN, TECATO. But you know, it captured the imagination of a lot of Chicanos that were in their 30s and 40s at that time. That was the audience. In the first one, I had a cross audience. But in AMOR CHICANO, it was more in like the 30s or 40s crowd that really looked forward to that movie.

03:04:38:00

INT: And then when you got to RUN, TECATO, RUN, why is that movie in black and white?

EG: Okay. The movie's in black and white because, again, after we did RUN, TECATO... Remember, I had been arrested and I guess I lost respect, you know, of a lot of people that assumed that I was a drug dealer, or whatever. So when we finished the movie, I was also, you know... I had divorced, I had split from my girlfriend. We were not married, but we were common law. Josie Faz. And when we split, I was all upset with everything that was going, you know, the whole Chicano movement, you know, faltering apart, the political scene, La Raza Unida, the music you know, kind of changing. The you know, the films are not going the way we thought. I thought there would be more people doing you know, film. We would probably be in Hollywood doing... So when all that wasn't working and then my wife, I mean, my girlfriend at the time, Josie, we got together basically again after I was arrested, to do the movie. Because she got into with it. But we weren't really you know-, we knew we were going to be splitting up, let's 186:00say. But we got together and we did the movie. She got very involved in it. [INT: She is producer?] She was producer. Yes. And we got together and then when we showed and we screened it, right away they wanted to cut me out, you know. I mean, not so much her. I guess in a way because I, you know, I... We agreed, you know. I gave her my 35-millimeter camera. I gave her my editing... I just wanted out. And but we had two girls. So she told me basically, you know, "If you want to see your girls, either you're going to leave, or I'm going to leave. And if I leave, you're not going to see your girls. So if you stay in San Antonio, both of us are not going to stay in San Antonio." So I said, "You know what? You keep that and I'll just leave. I'll go to California. I'm on my way to California." 187:00But I said, "Just give me Laredo. Let me screen Laredo," because Laredo was a good you know, revenue for me, because I had made $20,000 in both movies in one week, you know. And PLEASE DON'T BURY ME ALIVE I made like 30-some thousand in Laredo because I showed it two or three weeks there. But the first week always broke $20,000 in one week. So back then, that was a you know... I have records in Laredo that'll never be broken. In El Paso, probably in Brownsville you know, back in the time. So she agreed to it. So I went to Laredo just to show the movie, and whatever I was going to get there, I was going to use that to go to California and start a new life over there. But when I got there, that's what I said, I went to a club, and I met Irma. And I literally, it's a long story, but like I tell it, man, she blew me away. And I stayed there. You know, I asked her three times and turned me down three times. Two times. And the third time, I said, "If I, if she turned me down the third time, that's it." [INT: To go out 188:00or what?] To go out. Yeah. So anyway, the third time she agreed to meet with me, and we went out and we've literally been together since the first time we went out. I mean, she literally, I moved in with her first and then she moved with me, and then we traveled all over. And... until I had the heart attack, you know.

INT: So you never made it to California?

EG: No, I never made it to California. [INT: And what happened? Did you have a week of screening of RUN, TECATO, TUN?] Oh, yeah. We had a week, and we made, like I said, 20 some thousand dollars. But when Josie and the other producers, and the other people that were involved, we had... They're listed in the credits. I can't remember, but Janet Rowe [PH]. This guy from Corpus that was with the SBA. He was one of the, you know, put in $4,000 or something and helped 189:00produce. And then another guy put $8,000. Anyway, I collected $24,000. And but they weren't doing good. You know, when I stayed out of it, I guess they didn't have the contact or whatever, so the distribution kind of... on RUN, TECATO. And I was on my way to California. So Josie said, "Look, we're going to need your help. Would you come back and help us distribute? I know you're leaving, but if you leave, nothing's going to happen to RUN, TECATO." So I said, "Okay. I'll do a little run here in Texas for you all." So we showed it in Corpus, in The Valley and- [INT: The same print that you had shown?] No, with RUN, TECATO, we ended up with six prints I think. With RUN, TECATO. We had money, a little bit. 190:00So after we showed it in San Antonio with one print, then we had money to buy, anyway. We ended up with four prints or five prints. I'm trying to remember. But what I did, I stayed in Laredo and I didn't want anything more to do with anything. With filmmaking. I mean, I just said, you know, "That's it." I don't want to hear about Chicano. I don't want to- I'm so happy with- I met Irma. I said, you know, "I don't need anything. I'm happy with you." So I stayed there in Laredo and you know, we helped a little bit. And you know, we just stayed away from San Antonio. And my ex, you know, did some other things with the movie in San Antonio, well most of Texas. And so when we were screening the movie, or wherever they were screening, whatever, you know, it was getting interesting comments or whatever. Especially with the musica that Steve Jordan did, some original music there. And I just said, "You know what?" When I was in 191:00California, I mean, in Laredo, I was upset because I was at the Holiday Inn or Hilton, wherever we were staying at. That's when I met Irma. The second night I was there, one of the guys that had put up $8,000 dollars and was supposed to wait for the money, he was knocking at my door, said he wanted out. He wanted his money back. So I had to give him $8,000, which I had the money, so I gave him the $8,000. And I was... You know, that threw me off. [INT: That was it.] In a way. Yeah. But I said, "I'm not going to mess with it or I'm not going to do anything with it. I'm going to stay here in Laredo and see how I can survive." And I would go to San Antonio to visit my kids or whatever, but we just completely stayed away. And then I started losing track of you know, the 192:00movimiento. I started losing track with those musicos. And then stories started coming out that I had died, that I was in prison, that I was, all these kinds of stories. And people would come in from New York or California. They would want to interview me for something because, I had a big poster, a painting of PLEASE DON'T BURY ME ALIVE. My brother had a bar in San Antonio, Chris. So he put it there so people would see it and question, whatever. And that was the only thing that was keeping it alive because after, like I said, after I stayed, started staying in Laredo, what I did, I told Janet Rowe, "Here's a print, you know. Do whatever you want." I told Jesse Galvan [PH], "Here's a print. Do whatever you want." I gave it to my ex. "Here's a print. You do whatever you want." I don't owe you anything. I don't want to hear nothing about it, and I kept one print. But that print, my brothers were in prison, so I kept sending it and it got lost you know, when they, because... That's another thing that I used to joke that I had more fans in prison than I had outside. Because you know, the movie didn't 193:00get a huge distribution. It start, and then it stopped, and then disappeared after I disappeared. But the movies kept showing in prison. PLEASE DON'T BURY ME ALIVE, AMOR CHICANO, and RUN, TECATO. In 16-millimeter that I had sent him. And the 35 with RUN, TECATO. So I lost all of them, you know, myself, of my copies. But my brother say, "Send to Alabama. Send it to whatever." So I would be sending it. And I would always, back then, I'd get people come out of prison and they would thank me for RUN, TECATO. They really appreciated RUN, TECATO. Up to five years ago, a couple of people that came out of prison told me they had seen it you know, when they were in Texas prison. So I knew I had you know, people in there. And then everybody, as time went by, you know, people forgot about it. Twenty years went by almost, until Chon, you know, then we made a resurgence and it was because of him that I gave him a lot of credit. Him and Gregg Barrios because Gregg Barrios was the one that wrote the first articles about me. So anyway, I just stayed away from it. [INT: 20 years.] Twenty years I stayed in 194:00Laredo. And like I tell, that was the happiest years that I spent there. I tell people if it hadn't been for Irma, I probably would have died in California because I was in a destructive mood. And not that I was- But that's when the AIDS epidemic was hitting. I said, "I probably would have died of AIDS. Not because you know, I was going to be, I'm homosexual, no. But you know, because 195:00it spread. Nobody knew how it was spreading and I wasn't going to care who the women was, as long as they were pretty. And that was my thing.

03:15:01:15

INT: So how did you come back to San Antonio? And how did you come back to making films?

EG: Okay. When I came back, I still stayed in Laredo, even though you know, people forgot. After five years, people forget who you are usually. So y este... But after we were there five years, I kept my... You know, we did public access TV. I did a Tejano kind of show. I call it CTV for Chicano Television. [INT: In Laredo?] In Laredo and in Houston. We pushed it, also showed it in public access in TV. So we had a like a weekly kind of show. And Irma was, I used her as you know, the mistress, or the MC or whatever. The hostess. And we showed clips from Freddie Fender, Ruben Ramos, Little Joe. But it's free. We just had to learn how to edit the whole thing over again with the machines and everything, which we 196:00did. And then she started doing Miss International top model pageants. She started a modeling pageant. Did the modeling pageant for 14 years. And so we produced a TV show that aired- We produced it with public access, but it would air on regular TV, the local TV in Laredo. And also like two or three times on public access. So she got a really good name in Laredo. I liked it because in Laredo people knew me as, "You're Irma's husband." [LAUGHS] I was Irma's husband in Laredo. And I liked it, you know, because... "What's up? You're a friend..." I didn't really want to talk about it, but Irma was doing her thing there and she did it for 14 years, that she did the pageants there. And so that's why you know, I stayed, you know, not really wanting to know about films and doing 197:00films, except the little things that we were doing there. But I always, when I was there, I wanted to do a movie called, about the Republic of the Rio Grande. Jose Antonio Zapata and the Republic of the Rio Grande. It's you know, an interesting story there, beautiful history. And I read about it, researched it, and we wrote a script. And that's why around the time that Chon- I had already started researching. And I really wanted to do it. I said, "This would be the best thing to do a western that would show the history of the Tejano, the Chicano in Texas with the Native Americans." I'm talking more about the Comanche, the Cherokee, the Carrizo. And the Anglo, and the Texans, and the whole mixture you know, how you know, it... right there on the border. Because that's you know... That's why the betrayal, like I said, betrayal. A scene from the movie itself. Because that's when- Quaro Lewis [PH] was supposed to be one of the main characters in the movie, but of course, he dies there. And Jose Antonio Zapata are like two stalwarts, you know. One's an Indian and one's a 198:00Chicano or Mexican, Spanish or whatever it was at the time. But it's a beautiful story. I have a script that Jesse Borrego liked, Danny De La Paz liked, and y este... Benjamin Bratt. I you know, I have letters from them. They all wanted to work with me, and they agreed to do the movie. But I could never get, not even a million dollars together to put a movie, and that was a big western, so we could never pull it off. So when we were talking about that, and I was taking my stuff to, my box to Stanford for the archives, you know, I had a script that I had written for Cheech Marin, Cheech and Chong. I didn't know him really well, but I met Cheech and Chong in 1969 I think, '68. They performed in San Antonio. No, no. I'm sorry. It had to be '71, '71, because I had the teatro already. And they performed in San Antonio. And I went to see them. I mean, they blew me away, you know, to have funny characters. So Anthony, the guy that promoted the show, he 199:00had a pizza shop close on Culebra, you know, right before you got into the Varsity. And he was the one that brought all the hard rock bands, you know, that made Rush, and everybody in San Antonio. They made the hard rock capital almost back in the '70s, '80s. So anyway, through him, I told him, "Hey, I want to meet Cheech. You know, we have a teatro." I was so naive, I guess, stupid. I said, you know, "Hey, these Chicanos." So, "Nah." I wanted them to do a benefit for us, you know. My idea was for them to come and work with us and together, you know, with Cheech and Chong doing a little skit or something. You know, we could raise funds because we needed money for my teatro and stuff. And, well, they're Chicanos, you know, so I was really... But I talked to him on the phone, you know and you know, Chong was the one that was more reasonable I would say than Cheech. Cheech was- I didn't like Cheech after that too much. But you know, he 200:00wasn't as cool as I thought he was. But Chong was pretty cool. So anyway, Chong 201:00apologized. He said, "You know, Efrain, we're leaving, you know, but maybe one of these days we'll get together. I like that Chicano arte." We you know, bullshit on the phone. I told him I had seen him and everything. So anyway, I wrote to him in California, whatever, and I told him, "You know, I had a great idea to do a movie about Cheech and Chong," you know, like before they did UP IN SMOKE. I had an idea for them to do a movie. So I wrote like a 20-page script, you know, just generally. Of course, you know, by that time, I went to California with my script. They were doing- That's when I was up there. That's when I found out they had done UP IN SMOKE or whatever. So I couldn't get in touch with him anymore. I had talked to him twice on the phone. After that, I could get in touch. But I had that you know, little simple script, you know, about a concert kind of thing. So when I went to California to take the box up there, I stopped in Los Angeles and stayed with Jesse and Danny there. And I pull out the box and I even have pictures with Jesse and Danny. And so we couldn't raise money to do the big movie there, the western. "Hey, why don't you do this one?" And I said, "I can't write a movie like that." But I said, "You know what?" So that's where LOWRIDER SPRING BREAK EN SAN QUILMAS is actually, you know, the basis was for Cheech and Chong, you know, like... I was going to make like with that old lady, I was going to make Cheech wake up these old women, and being at a concert, and smoking. I was going to make it you know, funny like that. So we changed it. We adapted and we made LOWRIDER SPRING BREAK EN SAN QUILMAS. So you know, I eventually heard Cheech wanted to meet me. He came to San Antonio and waited around to meet me, but I didn't want to meet 202:00anybody. Edward James Olmos came. He was the head of the, in the '70s he was the grand marshal for the... They had just started the Los Angeles Dies y Sies de Setiembre parades there. I think it was the second one that, the grand marshal in '70-something. He had done Seguin and those shorts. But he was a name. So he came and David Peña hung around with him. And he said, yeah, that he wanted you know, to meet me, talk to me, and you know, that he was really interested in- But I didn't want to talk to anybody. I didn't want to meet anybody back then. So I said, "Ah, I'm not interested. Not interested." So for almost 10 years that people kept wanting, after I didn't want nothing to do with it. And my son didn't even know I made movies until he was in high school. And the only reason he found out is because you know, he, one of the kids that grew up in computer era and so when he was in high school he tapped my name I guess through Google, whatever. But he's got the same name. He's Efrain A. Gutierrez, Efrain Albran. 203:00I'm Efrain. So when he put Efrain you know, he started reading. Like, "Dad!" [LAUGHS] "Yeah, I made some movies, mijo." I didn't want him to get involved in it, you know, in films and stuff. I wanted him to be a doctor. [LAUGHS]

03:23:13:19

EG: Well with LOWRIDER SPRING BREAK EN SAN QUILMAS, it was easier because I had Irma to work, because she helped me a lot. She got very involved with me in the new, you know, what I was doing. So we were in Laredo and I had some friends that I met, you know, wealthy friends that I had met there. And one of them was a doctor, Dr. Francisco Peña, who is now like my philanthropist. He's helped me out with at least over $30, $40,000 dollars, you know. He helped out with $25,000 for that movie. And then I met another doctor, Dr. Larry Sands from San Antonio. And he put in another $15,000. He became the producer, but in the end, he ended up ripping me off because, long story, but LOWRIDER SPRING BREAK EN SAN 204:00QUILMAS. I don't talk too much about it because I sold the rights and they have never given me any more money other than the first $20,000 that they gave me when I signed the contract. And they were supposed to give me 50 percent. But 50 percent of nothing is nothing. And then I was sick, when I had the heart attack. I had a heart attack right after that, in 2000. That's when we were filming PLEASE DON'T- I mean that film. So the doctor told me that he had a friend up in California and that they could get the distribution, and that they needed my signature at a company that we had sold it to, so that they could look into what was going on because you know, they weren't doing nothing. So I just made one letter. I said, "I give permission to Dr. Larry Sands to look into whatever." Simple letter. I don't even remember exactly what I wrote, but they used that, the company, after they wouldn't talk, they won't talk to me. The company that I sold the rights to. Because they said that Dr. Larry Sands said that they were the producers and that they were going to deal with them. And I have never had 205:00money enough to go after them or whatever. So any report has been going to Dr. Sands. And every time I contact Dr. Sands, whatever, he avoids me or he won't talk to me, you know. And he's not around, you know. So and people are like, I talked to lawyers, "Efrain, it'll cost you more to get you know, the money out than what you're going to get. And we're going to charge you. We're not going to do it pro bono or anything." In other words, like, sometimes you did it based on the money you raised. But you know, they can prove a lot of things, you know. And in California, the laws and everything. So basically you know, unless you want to have some money to go after him, then you might win, but you're not going to get that much money out of it. You know, basically what they're telling me. So I've kind of just forgotten about it. And that's the movie that most people have seen. [INT: I was going to say. It's probably your most popular film.] Yeah. The most popular movie. And I hate it because other than the first $20,000, I haven't got any more money out of it. And that movie has shown, you know- The Lowrider especially. [INT: The Lowriders. Yeah.] I mean, Danny tells me, "Efrain, I go to car shows and people will bring me copies of it to sign." I 206:00said, "Danny, we're not getting any money out of it, you know." And it took a while. I had to show them letters and stuff like that. I said, "It's not that I, you know, I'm holding money, but that money is coming in, but it's not coming in to me." So 16 years up will be up in about another year. And according to the contract, that's the most you know, they can have. So we're trying to do a re-release, but call it- They went to... The original title was LOWRIDER SPRING BREAK EN SAN QUILMAS. When I sold the rights, they changed it. They put LOWRIDER WEEKEND. So if you see it, it's on the LOWRIDER WEEKEND on the video that they put out in Blockbuster and all that. When they had it. Hollywood Video and everything. They sold a lot of those. We had it under Lowrider Spring Break En San Quilmas. So now that this- I don't care. It's the same- One of the- Dr. Peno said, "Efrain, just put it out again on DVD." I said, "I don't know if there's that much money in it, but I'll, we're thinking of- My son wants to put it out under LOWRIDER SPRING BREAK EN SAN QUILMAS. And but that's why I really don't 207:00talk too much about that film. But we're getting to be able to work with Jesse, Danny, Kid Frost. I was very fortunate to work with them. [INT: Did they see any money do you think? Jesse Borrego and Danny De La Paz?] Oh, no, no. Because- There was none. [INT: No? Nobody did.] I mean, the only thing Jesse got was like at the beginning, like maybe $500 dollars and some expenses or whatever. Danny got you know, another three, $500 dollars. No, because we all were working together. If we make money, we're going to make money. We got the first $20,000 and that was it. And they, you know, they don't like it, but they know- See, I don't have money to go after him, me la estoy tragando. I can't argue too much because I don't have it to go after him. But no, they know. But no, they haven't gotten money either.

INT: One of my favorite shots is the Lowriders bouncing in front of the Alamo.

EG: Oh yeah. We took it, like I said, everything we did, we never got permission to do any of that, you know. So we couldn't stay there too long. [LAUGHS] And they would just quickly do it before they ran us off. You can't be filming in front of the Alamo too long because they'll run you off. So we took a couple of takes and that's about all before they told us we couldn't be doing that. But yeah, I really wanted the car to go up as high and make it look like it's coming down on the Alamo. But you know, we weren't far enough to be able to get under the car to do it. But that was my whole purpose. Man, I'd like to go Lowrider, and then just make it look like it's coming down on the Alamo. [MAKES NOISE] But it wasn't and it came down. [INT: And the music there, too.] Yeah. No. Randy. [INT: Viva la Raza is a big part of that movie, right?] Yeah. That was another group. Randy did some of it. But I had different groups do, had all the musicos do musica for that. Viva la Raza. Yeah. The guy was originally from California, but he lives in San Antonio now. [INT: But I mean, the lyrics are telling a big 209:00part of the story, right? Yeah. And you know, I think as you continued making films, the music was telling the story. It wasn't just music. It was helping to-] Yeah. No, it helped because see, again, like you know, to be able to go, transitions and stuff like that, you know. So I just used music to make those changes. [INT: And it's all written for the film, right?] Most of them are written for the film. Some I used because I liked already the music that was appropriate. But I'd say 90 percent of it was written for the movies.

03:29:36:01

INT: I was going to jump ahead to BARRIO TALES, but you know, you did a drive-by concert and skateboard barrio Olympics. I don't know if you want to talk about them?

EG: Yeah. Y este... That's when we started, after I had the heart attack, long story, but... My wife went to college back in '70, before I met her. And she 210:00dropped out right around the time I met her. '76. I mean '79. So she didn't get any- She was working for a doctor and she left her work to go with me. So you know, we traveled. We did everything. But she never went to school and she never worked, continued her schooling because we were always traveling, doing something. And but when I had my heart attack you know, in 20, like 20-some years later, I realized that you know, if I die, you know, I have no money. And she was going to have a hard time, you know. And I said, you know, "I don't want you to depend on a man or you know... We're going to have to you know, go back to school." And I hadn't finished my school either, you know. So I said, "But you know, I'm going to go back and I want to learn computers, editing," because I spent more money in LOWRIDER SPRING BREAK EN SAN QUILMAS in editing than I did you know, and I edited it here. I had to come from San Antonio to Austin to get the editor to edit it here. Fernando [PH]. I forget his name. But anyway, we're 211:00here in San... And I couldn't understand when they told me, to me, I was editing- "How can a computer you know, edit?" You know, I was so ignorant you know, about- [INT: It was digital editing?] Yeah. Digital editing because that's the first- [INT: That was the first digital.] The first movie that I did. And I wanted to be the first one to do a digital movie because that was 2000. We pushed it to try to get it out in 2000 because we realized that, again, that would have been, you know, especially for a Chicano, would have been the first digital movie that would have been made. But I didn't understand you know. I know that we started with film, but then we jumped to video cameras. And we finished the whole movie in video cameras. And it took a while for them to make me understand how easy it was going to be in editing. And when he was editing, the guy has a monitor here, monitor here. Like, "Wait, dude. Wait, wait. Don't... [MAKES NOISE]" But anyway, I just saw and I had to tell him, you know, well, like cut this out. So I spent a lot of money you know, coming back and 212:00forth to edit. I think I spent like, I think I paid him over $8,000 dollars and I ended up owing him over $8,000 dollars on the editing. So I said, you know, I'm going to go learn how to work that damn machine. So we went to St. Philip's so she could go back to start her classes. And I went back to learn computers. And she took the computer class to help me, too, because I didn't understand computers. And they allowed me to go into the multimedia without knowing computers because of my name. [LAUGHS] You know, Dr. Colangelo [PH], he knew who I was. He was very honored for me to be in-- And so they gave me permission. I didn't even know anything about computers. I mean, it was a joke. I was the dumbest one in the class, you know. But I just wanted to understand it, like I told the professor. I really don't want to be an editor. I don't want to be, but I want to know how this damn thing works, and how you can do with it, and things like that. So you know, I got a multimedia associate degree from Northwest Vista 213:00and my wife got tambien. And then we continued at- [INT: So was that a short film that you made while you were a student?] Yes, because while we were there, you know, part of the- one of the projects was to do a little video. And they told us, it couldn't be religious. My friend, you know, the, it was, so I said, "Look. It's a drive-by concert, but it just happens to be done," but... But I convinced him. But there was their own little- what do you call, a film festival. And we came second place. So they gave us, what was it? $500 or something scholarship. You know, plus we were able to use the editing- You know it had one of those big [INAUDIBLE]. The first editing thing that they had back in that time. And we were able to get so many hours of editing time on it as 214:00prize of it. So we did that.

03:34:06:11

EG: After I had the heart attack, I used to walk. I went back to neighborhood, my barrio, and my Mom's house. So it's right in the- And I would walk and there's a drainage ditch. And I would see kids that were doing skateboarding, but they would get from the top and go and then- And it was a drainage ditch, dirty water and everything. So I didn't understand too much about it, but I became friends with the kids. And you know, I started seeing the skateboarding thing, how it was starting to evolve and also with the kids there. And I was freaked out how they could go down, do all these little things and flips. And so I said, you know, "I would like to do a little documentary. Would you all be interested?" So they said, "Yeah." And I got... That was SKATEBOARDING BARRIO OLYMPICS, you know. We just cleaned up the drainage ditch because my doctor friend, Dr. said, "Efrain, do you know how dirty..." And he's the one that comes 215:00out. He's a real doctor in the film, in the short. And he told me, "That's filthy. You know, the city shouldn't be allowing it, the city..." I said, "Yeah, but politicians don't care, you know. It's in the worst- it's the poor kids. Nobody cares." But when we were filming, I called Julian Castro who was my councilman at the time. I was in District 7 at the time, so he was my councilman. And I knew his mother, Rosa, from the Raza Unida. So I said I knew the kids wouldn't- I didn't know them, but I saw them since they were little kids, you know, those twins. Julian and Joaquin. But I didn't know them real well, but I knew who they were and they kind of knew a little bit of who I was. 216:00So I invited them to go over to the house that I was editing BARRIO TALES. And we had done you know, those paintings that they did, I had kids do it. Well, when I invited him, the city came over and whitewashed everything, you know. Oh, boy, did I get pissed off. They almost put me in jail because you know, the guy brought a whole bunch of kids, you know, like status offenders that they got to do community service. And I yelled. "What the... you doing, you stupid." The guy said, "Who's the guy who-" "That's the guy that..." "No, we're here..." "Do you know that's art, you fool? I mean..." And the kids were saying, "Sir, we told him this is not graffiti. This is art." You know. But they whitewashed everything that was there. So I got so pissed off and I made such a scene that they called the police on me. So when the police came, I said, "Do you know, sir? I apologize. You know, I shouldn't have gone off, but let me show you." So I brought him into the house and I said, "Look, this is what we're working on. This is the art that these kids did. And then they have some stupid people come in here to whitewash it." And he said, "You know what, Efrain?" He shook my hand. He said, "Thank you. You're the first person that-" This is the worst at that time when we filmed it, was the worst part of San Antonio with no parks, no 217:00recreational areas. The most crime-infested area was from Culebra to Commerce. From General McMullen all the way to 36th or whatever. Where Memorial High School and Gus Garcia. He says, "I'm sorry they did that to you, but I can see why you got upset." Then here comes Julian and the neighbors are coming out because I walked him. I said, "Look Julian, this is what your people did to us." So and the people getting and skating to him, "Hey, Julian. Yay, yay!" And he says, "I'm sorry, Efrain. I apologize." "But they did it because you were coming. How come they did it to any- the only street they came and whitewashed was our street." Just so it would look good while he was coming because they thought it was all graffiti. But then he promised, you know, we want a park in here for the kids. So it took a while, but you know, it went through a couple- 218:00Because he became mayor. And then he left. But he did put in a lot of, you know- He said, "We're going to get it." And we eventually got it Rosedale, which is right across from General McMullen. We finally got the first park in there. [INT: Yeah? Skateboarding?] Skateboarding park. It's there at... I forget the park there.

INT: And did one of the boys actually get sick? Or did you, it was [OVERLAP] story, no? That was part of the...

EG: No, no. We made up that story to make it a little more interesting. But you know, the kids liked it and you know, it was fun you know. And I liked shorts, documentary shorts. So we did those two. And by then, my son has grown up. And he's getting into films, too. And now he's you know, a filmmaker and everything, too. But Irma and I started talking about- You know, I wanted to do something that would be you know... We started with LOWRIDER SPRING BREAK EN SAN QUILMAS, but... which was a little more comedy, more love, you know, not so political or 219:00social problems. And then LOWRIDER was the one that... Irma really likes that I guess of all my films. That's the one she likes. LOWRIDER- I'm sorry. BARRIO TALES: TOPS, KITES, AND MARBLES. Because after we did LOWRIDER SPRING BREAK EN SAN QUILMAS, we went and we waited about another eight years or so. And then after the heart attack, I started feeling better. And we did, in 2008, is when we released and did BARRIO TALES: TOPS, KITES, AND MARBLES. And Irma has been working, my son did some study in photography. Irma now, I want her to be more a director. I think she's a better director than I am. She's definitely a better producer than I am. [LAUGHS] So I'm very fortunate now that she's gotten into my work, but also while we're doing this, she's gone back to school. And she's got 220:00her Master's in bilingual education. She just got her Master's in Special Education because she wants to teach Special Ed. And she's preparing for certification to be a teacher. She substitutes almost full time when she's not with me, because she's a real good teacher. She's taught in every school in the Edgewood District, elementary to high school. Every school in- And every principal, you know, but she doesn't have the certification, so... They wanted to hire her in different positions, but we weighed the cons and so she wants to travel with me while she can. So right now she can work whenever she wants to and she can be with me whenever she wants to. But I think next year, if everything goes, she'll probably go back. I mean, she'll be full time if she passes the exams coming up. She should be becoming a certified teacher and then 221:00she can- Then I'll probably have to slow down because she won't be able to move with me so much any more.

03:41:00:17

INT: So how did you get the idea for BARRIO TALES? It's a generational film. It's a tour of the barrio. And the people that live there.

EG: Getting back to, like I said, after we came back from, and my heart attack, and we moved back to San Antonio, and I moved back into my Mom's house in the barrio on the west side. Getting to know the kids. Seeing the situation, the problems that are going there. But you know, so I started thinking about my Mom, my family, you know, like how we grew up, the family, and stories. And then the Vietnam era, you know, like there's a lot of people that you know, that have, are now losing it. Let's say Alzheimer's or whatever. So I always wanted to bring back you know, a little bit of you know, what happens to you know, to all these veteranos because we really haven't, in the Chicano really told that many stories about the veteranos. So I thought I'd take it a little bit... Now, a veterano that's old, losing it, but going back to la familia. And basically it's 222:00all like trying to get back home, which is what I am doing, and what I have done. I mean, I'm remodeling my Mom's house right now because we're moving back to- I want to be- I feel safer. I feel more comfortable. And there's a drug addict, you know, drug dealer, drug house right two houses down from my, from our house. As long as they don't bother me, you know, I don't have a problem with it. But I'm saying, people say, "You're stupid. You're crazy." No. I mean, I really am in- Even my wife you know, wants to go back, there. She says you know, we feel comfortable believe it or not, in the west side of San Antonio. So you know, all that came into you know, what I was going- Especially I thought I was going to die and didn't. And my Mom had passed away. You know, so I wanted to touch back- My father was not a veterano, but a friend of mine, my cousins and everything. So the guy that comes out, Plácido, he was a Vietnam veteran. He got his medal of honors- I mean, not a Congressional. He got the Bronze Star and the Silver Star, and different- 50 years after Vietnam. He just got it like 223:00about three years ago. Yeah. And my son is working on doing a documentary with him. American GI Forum... I forgot the name. But anyway. It's about the American GI Forum and how they're trying to get a hospital in The Valley because they have to drive, the veteranos to San Antonio because there's no hospital in The Valley. And they've been pushing it almost since Dr. Hector Garcia.Yeah. Hector P. Garcia was the founder of the American GI Forum in '48 I believe. 1948. And he you know, he opened a lot of doors for everybody. Just like Gus Garcia, who was the lawyer that represented all the cases dealing with segregation. So este... That's how I got with the American GI Forum. They've been very supportive of me. And you know, I've been to California to screen some films of, BETRAYAL and stuff like that up there. And I'm going to Michigan because of the 224:00American GI Forum, that opened some doors up there for me. Este... So I you know, I would love to do stories like that. I can't do it, but I'm glad my son is now working on a documentary about the struggles of the veterans that are still going- the continuing struggles of the veteranos. They you know, cover, of course, all the discrimination and the segregation. But they're still fighting for education, you know, which is the major belief of the American GI Forum.

03:44:33:21

INT: So you made a short called THE BETRAYAL but it's part of a bigger, of a feature script, right?

EG: Yes. Yeah. To me, I don't think there's a true history of not only the Mexicano, the Chicano, Tejano in Texas, but even the Native American in history in Texas. And I've become, like I said, I had ten ceremonies. And that's how Benjamin Bratt you know, is also... that's, and his brother, Peter Bratt, they 225:00go to Native American ceremonies with medicine, which is you know, peyote. And I'm fortunate enough to have met the only dealer, DEA-approved dealer, is a friend of mine, Salvador Johnson, who is the only peyote dealer that can sell you know, peyote. He's the one that takes it to all the native tribes that belong to a Native American church. So the head of the Native American churches in Mirando City, which is 30 miles outside of Laredo. So when I moved in Laredo, you know, I happened to meet him. And they've been peyoteros you know, like going back almost a hundred years, you know. Their father and their grandfather. They were the peyoteros. And I met Comanches that have been going into the you know, the same site to do ceremonies for over a 100 years now. And that's the 226:00group that I go in when I go into the teepee. And so you know, I started respecting, learning a lot of the Native American, not culture, but you know, trying to understand. And in the research that I did about the Republic of the Rio Grande, that's when I found out about the Carrizo, you know, that there was a Carrizo tribe you know, along the Rio Grande, and how they all were wiped out. Especially the Carrizo, 90 percent were eliminated in 1940 when they had their own- in the fight for independence. That's what they called the Republic of Rio Grande, Laredo being the capital. And they fought for like two years trying- they fought in Mexico and Santigo [PH]. They fought in the borders and they won some battles. But anyway, had a- there's a [beat?]. [LAUGHS] Unless you're a real Texas historian, you really don't even know that that existed. But what I heard about Zapata, Jose Antonio Zapata, and you know, this interesting and 227:00incredible person that you know, that lived at that time. And then you know, the oral history that I heard about the Comanches going in there, because the Comanches started going into that region for the peyote. And you know, they discovered peyote up in- with the Apaches up in the Rio Grande, by El Paso. But the peyoteros, you know, the Comanches that came down, that's where they got the peyote from, from the Rio Grande. And they you know, they've always respected that area, you know. And a lot of people don't understand the contact that we have with the Comanches, because the Comanches, you know... Because of different reasons, they stole kids to raise as you know... They lost a child, they would steal to replace it. And the Comanches accepted anybody. Once you became a Comanche that you're brought into the tribe, you know, you're a Comanche. There 228:00was no you're white, or you're black, or- No. You were a Comanche. So the Comanches tended to have sons that were not biologically theirs. They would steal a Mexican. And I don't know why, but I guess because it would look close to them. They would raid all the way to San Luis Potosi and bring kids and women. And they would bring women too. You know, they wanted the women to produce kids because their mentality was warriors. You know, they were warrior. And so they controlled Texas for a long time. They kicked out the Apache, but there was the Apache. People forget that Mexico put a bounty on the Apache in 1840, you know. Mexico was paying a bounty for Apache scalps. So you know, when I started looking at all- and how the Cherokee came in you know, and took Texas after the Trail of Tears, you know, how they ended up in Texas about 19... I guess by the '20s they were already established you know, in Texas. And the battles within the Comanche and the Cherokee. So I started reading all these 229:00stories. And then with the oral history that I was learning. And then going to the ceremonies, and then realizing that even they didn't know the stories, you know. So when I started talking about it, you know, I realized that they didn't really want to talk about it either. So that became a little issue. But when I, you know, I included that from the Tejano, from a Chicano point of view. And that's why I was going more with Jose Antonio Zapata and the Republic of the Rio Grande. But then when I started- I said, "Wait a minute. You know, the story really should be about the Native American and the Spanish." And that character is not out of history. Cuero Duro was a character that I heard a name, and I heard a tribe. So Cuero Duro was just you know, a story you know, that people said their was a man, different combination, whatever. So I decided to make him 230:00more or less the main character, or let's say the co-star. There'd be two. Antonio and him. So we wrote the whole script. It's about a three-hour story, you know. Este... Benjamin Bratt was going to play Cuero Duro. He was supposed to be Cuero Duro. Jesse Borrego was going to be Jose Antonio Zapata. Danny De La Paz was going to be mayor from Laredo. See and then another thing, there's a lot of beauty in it that people forget, that along the Rio Grande, we were more cultured than all the Anglos that were coming in here. In other words, by the time they were coming in, we already had schools. We had doctors. We had teachers. Este... What's that town that's right there? Guerrero. Guerrero was established in 1600, you know. And around 1830s, 1840s, when San Antonio was a little hick town, with the Comanches still, would give over the horses over to the soldiers and tell them, "Take care of my horse." Because they would come to San Antonio, kind of a big celebration to exchange captives and what have you, 231:00what they call ransom. [LAUGHS] So I said, you know, this is interesting that Guerrero was the biggest town between St. Louis, Missouri and Monterey, Mexico. Not Austin. Not any town in between. It was Guerrero, Mexico in 1830s. It was the biggest town, like around 40,000 people in Guerrero. And it's a community. And a lot of people trace their- you know, Tejanos, Chicanos, back to Guerrero or in that region because those were the first families that came from Monterey and were brought in. And then Laredo was founded a few years later. So when I started reading about this history- You know, I'm not a real good historian, but you know, I like history and that's why my Bachelor's is in history. So I really 232:00liked it. So when I did all this, and then when we couldn't do it- So as time went by and I realized that I was never going to be able to produce that documentary... I'm hoping some day somebody will. The script is there. But you know, it brings a better picture of what really happened in Texas. What really happened with Mexico. I'm not talking about the- I include the Alamo, but my story- It's a sad little story that happened. The focus is that... What's his name? Jose Antonio Zapata's wife is dying and you know, they're a close couple. And she dies you know, when the Alamo is going down. On March the 6th when they had killed... You know, and they say like stories- We talk about it like in the media because... One of the main sets is where... El Correo they used to have like a post there in Guerrero. And they had a little newspaper. El Correo del 233:00Norte [PH], whatever they called it. And you know, it was just one page, whatever. And that's where the news would come in from Mexico, and then they would distribute it from there, whatever. So that's the little stories in Guerrero. Of course, Guerrero's now under water. That's the one that, it's in the Rio Grande. It's under water. They built a Guerrero nuevo, but Guerrero, Mexico, it's a beautiful- You can go by boat and you'll see the church steeple sticking out of the water. You see you know, the church under water, the towns, buildings that are still under water. When the river resides some of the buildings have come up you know, after years of being under water. It's a beautiful story also in that regard. A lot of tourists go down there just to see that. So anyway, when I... That's why I wanted to do you know, a complete story. And people that have read say, "You know what, Efrain? This is better history than you'll find in every damn history, in our Texas history." Like I tell them, 234:00the story of THE BERAYAL, the story of... In every history book I've read it's a page and a half. And they wiped out, they massacred the Comanches right there in San Antonio. And yet, you know, how many students really know about, you know, or history students know about that? Even Comanches didn't know. So when I did it, even the elders didn't like it you know. I got, you know, like I said, a professor from Oklahoma told me I represent the Comanche nation. We wanted to make sure that you're not you know... how you're portraying us you know, because we take care of our image. Anyway, I talked to him. The only thing he said, "You know what, Efrain? The elders don't want to talk about it, but I'm glad you did. Because you're right, you know. We can't forget. We need to get the young people to remember that." And I don't know. You see that. It's not a bad thing. You know, I mean, it's a bad thing in what they did to them, but I'm saying... They were already defeated. They didn't have to do that. But I try to put it a little more from the perspective of, even though I didn't talk to the Comanches. I 235:00asked for their help. I asked for it to get me started, but they don't want to talk about it. So I based it on oral history and what I, you know, right out of the history books you know, of what I've read, what happened. They can't deny it. So you know, people that have seen it- We showed it in California. We showed it in, you know...

INT: How did you distribute that or how...?

EG: We haven't, well, that one, we showed it at the libraries. And then through the American GI Forum, they set it up and we showed it in Los Angeles with Chon I think. But in Santa Maria, in Modesto, and I forget the other- We showed it with, you know, just a small gathering. Nothing great or whatever. But in Santa Maria, we showed it to the Chumash Indians or whatever. And not a lot, but one of the elders and some other people went. And they did a drumming for me because when they found out I was going to go, they did a little ceremony and they did some drumming before we showed the movie. And then when we showed it, they 236:00really appreciated it. And they said, "You know, if we would get enough money, would you come down and do one for us?" Because you know, they're the mission Indians along the California border. There's five missions, just like we have five missions. Except we have them all in one town. They have the five missions along the coast. And they don't have all their history you know, down. And I said, "I don't think I'll be around, but you know, if I'm around I wouldn't mind. I would love- You can pay me. You know, I'll come over and you know, work with whoever would like to see how we could put something like that. But I think it's important for you all to tell your own story," because you know, they don't have it. And we showed it in Michigan. And then we showed, you know, Detroit. In you know, little groups, like when I go, nothing in theaters. No. But to groups. You know. But like I said, I give that credit to the American GI Forum that was able to get me to places that I wouldn't have been able to. And it's only a short. It's only a 30 minute. And now we have it, my son putting it out on 237:00[Vimeo?]. We don't have it. I think he's going to put it out like for a dollar if anybody wants to see it. Contribute a dollar. He said, "Dad, maybe they'll give you a dollar. Or let it open it up." I said, "Yeah. Go ahead." Most of my work is, he's taking care of it. Like I said, I don't do any computers. I don't know about posting or... I have a Facebook, but I just look at it. [LAUGHS] You know, I don't really... I feel bad when people write to me or something. I have to email them, say I don't really converse or get into Facebook. I just look to see what my kids are doing, or what my son's writing about or something.

03:57:28:10

INT: Your first three films are archived at UCLA. And I wonder if you want to talk about you and meeting Chon, and then kind of the mystery of trying to track down the prints so they could be archived.

EG: Well see, after I got away, I got away for like about, like I said, 20 years. And I didn't want to hear anything abo ut it. My daughter, Mona Lisa, who is... Josie Garcia is my oldest daughter. She comes out in almost four of my five movies. Josie Garcia Gutierrez. And she's my oldest. And then my second is 238:00[INAUDIBLE]. And then Mon a Lisa. But anyway, Mona Lisa... Because we never married, her mother didn't use my name. So her name is Mona Lisa Faz, not Gutierrez. And since I didn't raise her you know, because we were apart, but you know, we got together. I was living in San Ignacio. Like I said, I had bought a trailer and I parked along the Rio Grande. And I didn't want nothing to do with anybody. I stayed there for a year. So Mona was doing some internship or something at La Guadalupe. And I don't have very good relations. They didn't have them at the time with La Guadalupe, even though I tell them that was my home because we founded it. But I didn't have any relations for a lot of 239:00reasons. And so they wouldn't show any of my films. And according to Chon, he would come and ask him. They would deny even knowing me. So no problem. I didn't know what was going on. But then my daughter called me one time, after the 20 years anniversary, and said, "Dad, Jimmy Mendiola is a filmmaker. And he's the curator. And he is one of your biggest fans. And he would like to show your movie, the 20th anniversary of PLEASE DON'T BURY ME ALIVE here at the Guadalupe. Can you get a print?" I said, "Yeah, I think I could get a print." I said, "Yeah. I'll go there." She said, "Well, Jimmy wants to invite you. Can you come?" This is in August or something and it's not till January, whatever. So I was in Laredo and I was so happy. And I said, "You know what, mija? I wouldn't go. If they would invite me, I would not have gone, but because you want me to 240:00go and you're my daughter, and I'll go there and I'll behave, and I'll be, act right and everything. But it's not because of them. It's because of you. Tell that guy Jimmy I'll be there." "Okay." So then you know, I started- I was working in Laredo, I was the Texas State Teachers' Union representative for TSTA/NEA. And my office was in Laredo. So you know, I started passing the word around that I was going to be in San Antonio for the festival, and I was waiting for the invitation. [LAUGHS] The invitation never came. So here we are in January, because it was in January when they had the festival. And I never got the invitation. And I was so upset, so pissed off, that I was going to go make a scene you know, and cuss everyone of them out and everything. Jimmy included. And after, goddamn, this guy used my daughter to embarrass me. I mean, I was so mad at Jimmy. I said, "You know, he's going to be sorry when I see him." And he 241:00knew. He was afraid. And then my daughter, "No, Dad. It wasn't Jimmy. It's the Guadalupe and this and that. And they didn't allow him," or anyway. Whatever happened. So at that time, that's when... Over here... El Subcomandante Marcos is doing his thing up there. And my son and I were the first ones who started protesting. We were living in Laredo, so we went right around the Rio Grande. I mean, on the border. And we tried to protest and then we went to the Mexican Consulate. And you know, we protested. They almost arrested me and everything. But word got out. They you know, like they picked me up in Mexico, and then they picked me up in what is it? The cables kind of things that... So the right hand for Subcomandante Marcos you know, came to my office and said, "You know what, Efrain? I'm in Austin and I read about you. And we're going to be doing this musical thing." I said, "But I'm not a musico." He said, "No, but maybe you could get, we would like Steve Jordan. You know Steve Jordan. We want him to contribute to this contribution of Mana [PH], all these people from Mexico doing 242:00it." For raising funds for Subcomandante Marcos. I said, "Sure." But anyway. Long story is that he told me he was here in Austin. He had contact with a group of Chicano- They had not a festival, but they had a film group here. I can't remember the name. So he said, "Would you like?" I said, "Sure." So I met him and then, "Would you be interested in showing the movie over here?" I said, "Yeah." But they didn't pick a date or anything. I said, "Well, okay. I'll do it." And then out of the film festival in The Valley, she called me, the CineSol Film Festival in The Valley, she called me. And told me, "Efrain, let's do the 20th anniversary here." I said, "Okay." So it came out in the Texas-- I don't know. One of the big magazines that I was going to be. But then Austin, who had 243:00offered it first, said, "Hey, we're going to show your movie over here." I said, "But I promised it over there." He said, "Yeah, but you said we could do it over here." So they beat them by like about a month you know. So we showed at the Adobe Theater right here. And we packed it in and they did it real good. But that took the... She wanted to make a big thing. But anyway, I still went up there to the CineSol. And they just put a little blurb about me. Anyway, that's when I saw Little Joe again. We caught up again or whatever. Anyway, there was other people there. And my film was shown at like two o'clock, PLEASE DON'T BURY ME ALIVE. And I showed it in 35-millimeter because I had taken it to Chon. So I showed the 35-millimeter because I had gotten it, because when they told me they need it... How'd it go? No, I showed the 16-millimeter because they had contacted me. They were looking for it. So anyway, I got it before it had burned down. And I showed it there. And they were, I had like 400 people show up and 244:00everybody's excited, and made a big deal. I mean, I was... you know, when they see the panel. Ninety percent of the questions were coming at me. They were coming in. You have all these other filmmakers and 90 percent of the people are going like... I'm not even in films 20 years. And I had like 15 film producers, directors and what have you, were there to greet me when I showed up. And that's when I met this guy from, who is now a professor up there in The Valley. Fred Garcia. He did, also a movie with Jesse Borrego you know, back in the '80s. And he tells me, "Efrain, here you know, we've been wanting to meet you. We went to San Antonio. But they said that they couldn't get in contact with you." And that you know, said, "We had like about 15, 20 people were upset because we thought you were going to be there. But when we found out you're here." So you know, and 245:00I started meeting some young filmmakers you know, that are now, some are professors and what have you. So we got a great reaction you know, 20 years later. And that's when, I don't know if it was Jimmy, not Jimmy. Somebody else told me, "Chon is looking for you." So I said, "Okay." So I called Chon you know. "Hey, Chon. I heard you're looking for me." And Chon had heard all these bad stories about me, so he thought, "Hey man, am I going to get in trouble with you or what?" No. So he told me, he said, "Hey, I got the prints." So I remember, first I took the PLEASE DON'T BURY ME ALIVE. A 16-millimeter. Not a 35. And then he asked me if I could get all of them. I said, "Okay. I don't know about AMOR He got Amor Chicano at CFI. And then I went to Corpus to- And he still had it in the closet 17 years later that it was there, and never moved. So 246:00it was all... The only print we had for RUN, TECATO, RUN was in color, but it had all, sitting there with the rust corroded everything. So everything just kind of, the colors just, they couldn't get the colors out. So when the archives got it at UCLA, they couldn't- So they said, "You know, what we can do is bring it out in black and white now, and then you know, later on when we can, or some in the future we'll get in color, but right now do you mind if we bring it out and get in DVD in color?" I mean in black and white. So I said, "Sure." And I don't mind it because it kind of makes it, even gives it a little more... Like it's an older film or something. [INT: Well and almost more documentary style.] Yeah, more. So in a away, I don't mind. But it was in color. Now it's in black and white.

04:06:56:14

INT: Two years ago, your film was included in the National Registry of the National Film Preservation Board of the Library of Congress. When did you first hear about that and what was your reaction?

EG: [LAUGHS] I heard about it. I didn't even know- Again, like I said, I'm very ignorant about a lot of things. A lot of people think that because I've done film, whatever, I don't know... a lot of things, the real world out there. I only know you know, things that I can handle. But when I heard about it, you know, I said, well... I was very impressed with UCLA archiving it. And then Chon, you know, I called Chon. I said, "Hey, Chon." I thought they'd contacted him. He said, "No, Efrain. They contacted you." I said, "Chon, what's this about?" And then he told me, "Oh, Efrain. No. This is like..." Man, they've got like over one-and-a-half million films, and they select this. And like look at it. Compare. Out of... Or 25 out of a million and a half. That's quite an honor. Because he had been working on it. He was the one that nominated it to the... And he told me it's going to take like about 15 years before... Because it takes like six, seven years to get nominated, and then another seven years. He says it 248:00took six years to get it nominated and then it took whatever. So it finally came in 14. So you know, that you know, got my attention. You know, but again, I don't have an agent, a publicity manager. So anything that comes is because people hear about it or you know, like I've had some people that haven't contacted me. And they've interviewed Chon like out of Chicago. The film society. They showed AMOR CHICANO, and they couldn't get in touch with me, so they got in touch with Chon and had the whole interview with Chon. Like I tell people, "Chon knows a lot about me because when we were interviewed together, like I'll forget and he'll correct me." And, "Chon, you know more about me than I do," because dates or whatever, names sometimes I forget. So Chon had you know, a lot of, he's the one that got all that work done. And he's the one that got it nominated in there. And Gregg Barrios, I give him a lot of credit because 249:00he's the one that did that Chicano cinema book that they wrote back in the '80s. I didn't hear about it till about eight years, seven years later that I was in that book. And because of how they started looking for me. But it was Gregg Barrios that had seen my work, and just made a page and a half. And from that page and a half, a lot of you know, academics started looking for me, and professors. And there was another professor that also wrote about me around that time, Chon. He's now in Mexico City. He was at California State, Carson City. Domniguez Hills. Carson City? He's now... This is the second year I think they're doing a Chicano film festival in Mexico City. And they invited Luis Valdez for the first one two years ago. And I met this- When I came here to see the film festival, the Austin Film Festival, I met this filmmaker from Mexico. And he's the one that was telling me, "Would you go?" I said, "Well, I don't 250:00know about going to Mexico, but..." He said, "No. The professor-" And it turns out it's the same professor from over there. And Luis Valdez of course knew me and everything. Said, "Yeah, we all talked about you but he went back and told, 'I met Efrain.' Well, where is he?" "Efrain, they wanted you to go down there. Will you go?" I said, "Well, if they invite me. I'll probably go, but I'm not too..." You know, I'm afraid of all the drug problems that are going out there. There's the cartels and everything. I said, "I'll probably be the one to get shot or something." He said, "No, it's not that bad." Blah blah. So they haven't invited me yet, but supposedly they want to invite me to go to the... They have a Chicano Film Festival that this professor used to teach Chicano studies at Cal State. And I'm very- I have footage of him because when I first went to Chon, to UCLA, I hadn't met the other professor. But when he found out I was there, he 251:00invited me to go there. And the interesting thing about him is that he knew about me and had seen my work before Chon did. But he saw and he said, "Efrain, the interesting-" And I have it on film when I visited his school. And he told the class, the group that was there, he said, "I heard about Efrain in a film festival in the '80s when he went to Mexico City." He said, "And during the film festival I met this man and he invited me," you know, because he was Chicano, "That he had some films that he wanted for me to see, that he was curious if I had heard about them." And he says, "So I went to his house and I saw this film. The first film he puts out is EL MEXICANO EN LA TIERRA DEL TERROR or some shit like that title he says. So I'm looking at it and then I realize that's not anything about the title. That's a Chicano movie. He said and when I had read about- That's probably PLEASE DON'T BURY ME ALIVE. He said, "And that's what it was." But under a different name. And then he told me another one. Some kind of 252:00love title. And it was AMOR CHICANO ES PARA SIEMPRE. Of course, I didn't even know. He says, "And that's when I knew about you, but they were under different titles. Somebody is ripping you-" I said, "Well, probably." You know, but I don't even know what's going on back then. But he told me about that and that's how... He wrote a beautiful article that I have somewhere for another film festival, with the Native Americans in New Mexico. And he was the one that did the story. I didn't even go there, didn't show up, and the story is about me. [LAUGHS] And it's an interesting article. He did the write-up on it. But then he talks about me and the work, and blah blah blah. He says, "I knew about you, but you know, I didn't know how to get in contact with you." But he was in the '80s also. David Maciel. [INT: David Maciel. I know him.] David Maciel was in Cal 253:00State, Los Angeles. And now he's in Mexico City. [INT: He's in Mexico City, yeah.] Yeah.

04:13:09:03

INT: So I know you're working on a documentary that's in a way taking you back to where you started. So you want to talk a little bit about that? AL NORTE is the name, right?

EG: Yes. That's my passion right now. I'm so excited. I'm so... I hope I live long enough to at least finish the interviews. Like I tell my son and my wife, "I might not be able to finish the documentary you know, the way..." But I want to lay down the narration of how I would like it to be anyway. But right now I'm interviewing migrants. I started because of my personal life from the '40s to the '70s more or less. It's when the majority of the migrants would leave south Texas and go up north. And I call it AL NORTE because I see that my father, grandfather left Mexico to go al norte, going north to come to survive. And then when I was young, we had to go al norte to Midwest to survive, to work, to find 254:00work. And when you do, you know, I grew up in that, all the way to the '60s doing farm work, labor work. And I have always taken you know... I wanted my family to see where- I took my oldest daughter when she was young to see where I worked. And I'd taken Irma to meet my relatives in Ohio, but not to see the migrants. So you know, it'd been in my mind. I said, "You know, I want to go to take you, Irma, to see where I used to go work in Auburn, and in Michigan, and in Ohio. And I have family up there. So you know what? I'm going to contact them and let's go down there and visit." So last summer, July, we went up there and I made contact with my cousins. You know, like I said, one of my oldest cousins, 255:00he would be in his 90s by now, but he married an Anglo girl in 1951. He had seven kids and he retired from the railroad. He just stayed up there. We would see the kids you know. They were a little bit younger than me. But they would come for Christmas. And we would go up there to work, up north. We'd see Antonio, Tony. And so he was like a brother you know, my aunt's son. And when I went to meet him, you know, we had a good family reunion kind of thing there. And it dawned on me, you know, like there was a lot of people that stayed up there you know. And not only inter-marriage, but you know, Chicanos that just stayed up there. And you know, I knew there was problems with the education, and that's when I started putting, you know, why the people stayed up there. And then I started seeing, you know, like, wait a minute. A lot of the people that 256:00stayed up there did better than we did, you know, than the ones that came back to Texas. And like I say, I use myself, we're seven. I'm the only high school graduate, college graduate out of seven. And yet, every family that stayed up there, just about all them you know, not all. At least they got their high school and graduated, professionals. So you know, I met you know, professors. I met politicians. I met business people. And you know, their stories are, you know, they were all migrants, and how they made it, and how they survived, and how they stayed up there. You know, what their contribution, and how they feel about it. And then I see the ones that came back, and like I said, in my family, you know, my brother, you know, my cousins were migrants, and they got into drugs. And a lot of other people got into you know, drugs. Because basically that was the only thing you could make money into, because nobody was hiring you. [COUGHS] And so I can understand that. Not to make an excuse, but I can see you know, the times, how they were. But the people that came over, that stayed 257:00here- And then I even look at the way the people, you know, I'm thinking the second, third generations that are living here, but stayed in the barrios that... You know, their families didn't get to be professionals or you know, make money. And now they're you know, teacher aids or they work for the city. Or you know, they're nurse's aids or whatever. But you know, they're working at a job you know, doing... And then I compare that with the same, even my relatives that are doing the same thing in Auburn, Indiana, in Fort Wayne, Indiana, Defiance, Ohio, whatever. That stayed up there. And they're working in a hospital. Or they work managing McDonald's or whatever, you know. And an eye-opener to me. Like I see where they live. They live in real nice houses. They drive you know, not brand new cars, but you know, real nice cars. Clean cars. The streets are real paved. And everything's really nice. I mean, they would be considered poor you know, like over here. The same, and then I go and 258:00look at the ones that are doing the same, but living over here. And our houses are dilapidated. You know, the barrio, the streets are not, we have no sidewalks. We have, you know... so you know, like I go... and it's not only because you know, these people made it. No. Now I'm looking at, I compare you know, the people that made it, but now I'm looking at the people that didn't become rich or didn't become very... But they're living in the same as over there in... My wife couldn't believe, in Michigan. Like she was impressed with Michigan. It's the cleanest state, the most, you know, everything's so perfect in Michigan everywhere you go. So you know, those are the things that are hitting... And I'm filming the barrios. I want to film in Laredo, in San Antonio. I want to film in any barrios here and then where Tejanos, Chicanos live over there. And then the other thing is like, when I was growing up, Mexico was a homeland you know. Like we're Mexicans, you know, even though we're 259:00American. But for different reasons, they didn't want us, or anyway. It doesn't matter. But you know, my father in Mexico. So we Tejanos came to see Mexico as our homeland you know. Our roots are from Mexico. Well, I'd say 90 some percent of the people that stayed in the Midwest- I'm talking about anywhere from Midwest, but all California. Washington. Idaho. Wherever, because that's where we all went to work, all the north. You know, all the people, Texas is our homeland. You know, they have so much love for Texas, so memory for Texas. You know, like when I went to Michigan, they thought I was going to Traverse City and they asked me if I could show a movie, and would ride in a parade and everything. It was so beautiful. But they asked me, to interview me. And they interviewed me in Grand Rapids, when I stopped in Grand Rapids. Because I couldn't go to Lansing, because I go- They came to interview me from Lansing. 260:00And they interviewed me at the Hispanic Center in Grand Rapids, Michigan. And the director there is named Roberto Torres. And so they're interviewing me and he's listening. And I'm talking about you know, the musicos. He had to interrupt, he said, "Efrain, everybody you're talking about- I was born in Toledo." He's a like a marine and everything. He said, "I was born in Toledo, Ohio, but my family were from Floresville or somewhere out here." He says, and now he's a big politician out there. He knows all... He's running for some office in... Anyway. He says, "All the musica. Stephan Jordan, Little Joe, everything. I grew up with it even though I was over here. And we would to go Texas. And they all speak Spanish." Me entiendes? Which is you know, when you see Chicanos, especially in California and now young Chicanos in Texas, they don't speak Tejano any- But you meet a lot of the Tejanos that were raised over there and they speak Spanish. And the Chicano, I tell them, "There's more unity 261:00in the Chicano groups. And like I got so much love, just- And they didn't even know..." Last year, now this year, and now I'm going to Michigan, and I'm going to you know, like Lansing, Traverse City, Bangor, and then I'm going to Defiance, Toledo, Fort Wayne, Auburn. And I have people you know, waiting, you know, some that I'm going to interview. They're paying me to go to Michigan State, so that helps me with my trip you know. And again, not because the professor to me, the Chicano professor over there is from New Mexico. So he didn't know heck, anything about me. But a student that is getting his PhD there from the valley, he knew about me so he turned him onto to me. And now they invited me to the Latino media conference that they're having in Michigan State on July the 15th. So that's going to help me, to pay my way. Because I can't wait to submit a proposal and wait six months to a year. So I'm doing it. Now I'm going to start writing a proposal to see if you know, I can get some funds somewhere to finish what I'm doing. But whether they do it or not, I know I'm 262:00going to do it. I know I'm going to... I mean, at least hope to do the interviews. And I have an idea how you know, how I'm going... to some live action into it and make it a little more [compatible?] for the audience to see. But most of it is just the stories you know. And not, like I tell them, not all of them are going to come out. I'm going to use you know, quotes, you know, excerpts from the different people that I interview. [INT: And not just family members?] No, no, oh no, not just family members. [INT: Migrants in general.] Migrants. As a matter of fact, I came on the radio, I'm going on the radio in interview. Just a brief interview. Just to tell people like, I haven't done it here in Austin. But I'm going to two radio stations in Corpus, and then I'm going to a TV station, radio station in The Valley, in McAllen. And basically I'm just going there to tell them you know, I'm doing this documentary. I would 263:00like to contact people that were migrants from the '40s to the '70s. And if you were, maybe if you're not a migrant but your father was a migrant. If you have stories, especially pictures. Like I say, I know we didn't have films because we couldn't afford the 8-millimeter films, but I know that there's pictures. Because you know, I have pictures. People freak out you know, with some of the pictures from my family when we were migrants. And so I'm pretty sure that everybody's got some pictures. So I'm trying to, when I interview, "Give me some of your pictures that I can share. And some of your stories." So I'm trying to get one hour from each person that I get. And I'm saving that for the archives, for- It might be in California or it might be here in Texas State, or whatever. But I want you know, these stories to stay there. And then I start with five minutes and those five minutes I give back to them. You know, when I interview them. Like who you are, where you are, where you went. Just briefly five 264:00minutes. I said, those I'm going to- And I'm going to give you that back. The other hour, you know, I'm not going to promise that I'm going to give everybody, because I'll never finish. I said, but the other hour I will keep it and I'll turn it over to wherever you know, it belongs you know. But it'll be archived. Because everyone has stories, that I can't make a story out of each one. Even though some have so many beautiful stories. I said, "Man, I wish I could you know, do a story about that." But so they're willing. I mean, I'm awakening something that has been forgotten for so long. People just tell me, you know, are thankful. I got, "Gary, Indiana I got five stories here that you know, we moved over here since the '40s. And you know, so there's still five people that are still alive. You might be able to get them in time." In Defiance, Ohio, you know, I'm interviewing where they used to have the dances. I used to know the guy that founded the Latin American Club in Defiance, Ohio in the '50s. And 265:00everybody said, "Latin America." I said, "No, that's what they used to call us. They didn't call us Mexican Americans in school. They called us Latin Americans." So they named it Latin American Club back in the '50s in Defiance, Ohio. I said my cousin married his son. I went to school with his son, Lopez. Melitto Lopez. [PH] Anyway, I met the owner and I said, "Well, it used to be the, you know, it was a non-profit. They lost it 15 years ago. I paid the taxes. Now it's mine. And Efrain, we have like over 200 families that still come. We could come like for the dances on the weekends and stuff." He said, "But that's dying out. Like I could count on 200. Now I can count on about 50, because you know, we're old. We're dying. And the ones that are not dying, we're too old. We don't want to go out." And he said, "But if you want to show one of your movies, you know, we'll..." So I'm doing, you know, just- He's going to let me have the place and everything. And I'm hoping that I get some coverage or something so I 266:00can get the word out. But my interest- I don't care who comes. I just want people to come and share some stories. And maybe I can talk to them you know, follow up. But no, I'm going to wherever I can. And the people that you know, that are willing to come, they can come to San Antonio. I can interview them. Or I'll be able to interview while I'm there. I said I don't know money-wise if I'll be able to cover everybody, but I'll probably interview between 30 to 50 people. [INT: And you get them on digital video?] On digital camera. My wife or my son would do the camera work. And I'm just going to be like you, sitting over there and let them talk. [INT: Like this, yeah.] And I have like 10 questions you know, that I cover. [INT: Everybody gets the same questions? Yeah.] Where they were born, where did they go. What state? What did they pick or harvest or whatever. And then stories you know, about... Good or bad. You know, what happened. Things like that. You know, just to open them up. And you know, it's really beautiful. Today I just got two more from... I forgot where. I got them in the internet. They write to me and they wrote to me. Because I'm sending that 267:00letter that I sent to share you know, what I'm doing and... So every once in a while people will contact me. And I'll invite them. I've interviewed there at my studio. I'm trying to interview every Sunday when I'm there, interview three or four people whenever I'm there in San Antonio. There's one guy I'm waiting just to still interview, Ray Padia. He was a migrant in Michigan and everything, and he stayed up there. He became the valedictorian in a little town up there in Michigan. And a few years ago, they had him to be the guest speaker. He's a prominent person there in San Antonio, you know, but I'm saying he became a professor I think tambien. I don't know his whole story because I haven't interviewed him and everything. His name was given to me by the professor up in Michigan who's a friend. But you know, there's so many good stories of things that happened. [INT: A lot of stories. Okay.]

04:27:54:05

INT: Your family has been involved in many of your films. So do you want to go through some of them and give tribute to your family?

EG: Okay, well like I said, the first one, well, my girlfriend, my second wife I'd say, she was involved as producer and actress in the first movie. She was the main actress in PLEASE DON'T BURY ME ALIVE. My daughter, who's- [INT: And your ex, her name was?] Josie Faz. [INT: Josie Faz. Okay.] Josefina Faz. And my daughter, my first daughter from my first marriage, Josie Gutierrez, my oldest daughter, she came out in the first movie. She's a little girl, like my little sister. She's six, seven years old or eight years old. Whatever. And now she's 269:0046. She also came out in RUN, TECATO. She plays the little girl that you know, that brings me back to my daughter. In BARRIO TALES, she plays, you know, the mother of the little girl. In LOWRIDER SPRING BREAK, I forgot. What? Anyway, she's been in almost except AMOR CHICANO, but that's simply because and you know, like I said, we were having problems with my ex, and so I went to Laredo. And she couldn't go. That's the only reason she didn't come out. So she's been in almost every project I've done. My son, who I didn't really want him to get into filmmaking. I wanted him to be a doctor, but he's now a filmmaker. And he started acting in LOWRIDER SPRING BREAK EN SAN QUILMAS. He's the young guy that builds the car, the lowrider that wins the top prize. And he's helped me in BARRIO TALES: TOPS, KITES, AND MARBLES. My youngest daughter, Irma Linda, my youngest daughter, plays one of the characters, the main characters there, the girl, a young girl, lady that comes in the film. Cherokee. And my grandson even 270:00comes out in little scenes there when he was little. He's 11 years old now. So you know, my son now is filming. And he's going into directing. And you know, the only thing is that [INAUDIBLE] so you know, we're starting to, you know, he's going, he's working in Houston, did a movie, MURDER BOOK up there in Houston with Juan Vasquez. Juan Vasquez is a filmmaker out of Milwaukee, who again, one of those young filmmakers that heard about me, came when we're doing... LOWRIDER and came from Wisconsin during Christmas to meet me, and stayed here. And anyway, he eventually ended up moving over here because he was a big fan of my work. And he wanted to be a filmmaker. He graduated from film school in Wisconsin, and he was raised in Wisconsin. But now he's living in Houston. He started his own company. And he already did his second movie. And they're working on their third movie. [INT: And your son was the 271:00cinematographer?] The son is the cinematographer. They're kind of, not partners, but they started as partners. But he's the co-producer and cameraman, editor. He's the main editor for- because he's a whiz at editing. So he's the one that's doing a lot of the work, and he probably will take what I don't finish. The projects that- Like he always says, "Dad, I'll do one of these days..." I said, "I don't know if you're going to do it. Maybe I'll give it to somebody else." He said, "No, no, I want that. I want that." So he wants to keep everything because he wants to do eventually everything. I don't know if he ever will. But you know, he's better of course than I am. Cameraman and editor, and what have you. So I'm very proud of him, but he's starting to go on his own. My daughter, like I said, Josie's the actress and they're good actors, but they didn't pursue the career. Josie and Irma Linda. I told them, the girls came out good actors and my son was not a good actor. He wanted to be an actor but he's not an actor.

INT: How about your current producer and publicist and personal assistant?

EG: Oh she's everything, yeah. That's my Irma. Irma's from Laredo. Like I said, I met her in Laredo and she's been supporting me almost since I met her. She's almost given up her own career. She's now going back to it, but she gave up a lot to be with me. And I appreciate that. She's very supportive of what I do. Even though you know, we're struggling, we're still going to spend all this money up in... And she's willing to you know, sacrifice in that regard. But she's also, I think she could be a good producer/director, but she wants to go into teaching. But she does a lot of producing. She's the one that helps me with the you know, the internet and what have you, with the computer because I'm not that good at it. She's also done a little acting you know, in it. [INT: She was the hostess of your TV program?] She was the hostess. And I think she'll be, end 273:00up writing my biography. I'm writing a lot of things down. And she's interviewing a lot of things. And she gets a copy of interviews. And she says everywhere I'm interviewed she'll always pick up, "Oh, I didn't know about this." [LAUGHS] You know, so like I said, I'm an open book with her. She knows all my... Probably more than a priest does, you know. She knows every bad thing I've done just about. I might have one or two secrets left in there, but... We work together. This is the first, I don't mean to be rude, but I was never this open with my ex and maybe that was my problem. But then, at the same time, you know, I'm not saying she's not jealous, but she's able to handle whatever mistakes I make. My exes weren't. [LAUGHS] So you know, I think- It's a long story. But I'm very fortunate. I'm very happy. And like I tell everybody, I don't care what I lost out. You know, I'm the happiest man when it comes to being in my personal life. I had 20 beautiful years with her in Laredo, more or less before you know, I came back into filming. And then we had another 10 good 274:00year or whatever, until I got the heart attack.

04:34:05:08

EG: You know, slowly, we're coming back. I'm getting a lot of energy, a lot of passion you know, to what I want to do. The only sad part of it to me is that you know, I wish I had another 10 years, but I don't think I'll have that much to do some of the things, and so many projects that I wish I could off onto. But right now, like I said, the main thing that I want to do is AL NORTE. I want to try to tell people you know, you know, how it was you know. Through stories and my own stories. But not only my story. Mine goes right along with you know, I just realized, we all have kind of the same story. Migrants, I'm referring to. And like I tell people, I have two older granddaughters you know. And one's 275:00given me a great granddaughter. Marissa Gutierrez. And Erica Bishop is my 21-year-old. I call her my little white girl because she has green eyes and brownish hair. I laugh because she always says, "They don't believe I'm Indian, Grandpa, right? You're Indian. I'm Indian." "Yes, mija. You're an Indian." At school, because guera. [LAUGHS] She said, "They don't nobody thinks I'm an Indian." They don't take her serious. When she was about in the elementary, you know, she brought that up. But now I have my great granddaughter, Madeline. And my granddaughter from my youngest daughter, from Irma Linda. And then Leanna Love Zuniga. And I try to spend as much as I can. And my grandson, of course, Roberto. Roberto stays with us almost half the school- We pick him up like on Monday, Tuesday. He'll stay with us. He likes to stay with us. And then Wednesday, Thursday he stays with his Mom. And then Friday with his Dad. But he 276:00says, "Grandpa, I want to be with you." So it's easier I guess, not because, I tell him not because he's a boy, but because he's older and I don't have to worry about restrooms and everything. He hangs around more. So I took him to Michigan. And I think it's important for them to meet you know, our other relatives you know, that are going down there. Because, like my cousin, I tell him, his great grandkids are now in China. Two of his great grandkids are in China. And one's going to marry a Chinese. You know, our family's going from Mexico to Auburn with the Anglo and Mexican, and now we're getting Chinese in. [LAUGHS] You know, it makes it kind of interesting for all of you know, the family you know, to see some of that. And you know, we talk about you know, like the bad things, you know, how we were treated or whatever. Discriminated, whatever. But you know, like I said, that's all, and I don't want that to carry over with the new generation you know. So when I talk, I tell them, you know, 277:00"Remember, I'm speaking about the eras that we grew up in. And I'm not saying that things were that great, but I mean, you know, things were different when I grew up. And things are different from the way you grew up." And we went, have come up with a lot of my friends that grew up like me. You know, we were also- I didn't really know we were, we weren't being-- that we were discriminated, let's say, ourselves. Because we didn't want to be-- Like we wouldn't... My uncle, "You can't marry white you know. Oh, how can a Mexican, you know..." So we didn't really want my, let's say, my mother, or not so much my mother. My father, I mean, my uncles. And my older cousins. You know, like there was always this, "There's them and it's us. Do you understand?" And I grew up like that. So you know, we never really had that mixture the way it was supposed to, or let's say, could have, it should have been. So when I talk about them, you know, we 278:00talk about, we were very not racist, but we did discriminate you know, who we wanted in the family and things like that. And I feel bad. Like I say, when my daughter married Bishop, you know, she cried. You know, "Dad, you know like, his name is Bishop. His last name's Bishop. His father's white. He's from Virginia." [LAUGHS] I felt real bad because you know, what I want and what I grew up is different you know. "It's what you want. You know, I would have preferred you know, you bring me some brown grandkids like me, that look like me, but you know, you follow yours, you know." And now we kind of joke about it with some of our friends. Because they say, you know, "Remember when we were growing up, man. Now we hate this that our kids you know, don't want to speak Spanish or our kids you know, don't listen to us. Our kids are getting married with white people and black people you know." And I said, "But wait a minute. When we were growing up, 279:00we were fighting because we wanted to be able to do, we couldn't do what we wanted to do. But we wanted our kids to do what they wanted to do. And now that our kids are doing what they want to do, we don't like it." [LAUGHS] Hey. So I said, "You know what?" I bring this story, my uncle in New Braunfels, they were very racist there. And my uncle, you know, my mother's brother said, he told his kids, "None of you ever better marry a German," because it's mostly Germans there. He was against the Germans. You know, because they had hung up one of my uncles, you know, was tarred and feathered him back in the '40s in New Braunfels. Because back then, Mexicans weren't allowed to be in the streets after dark. If they catch you they would find you tarred and feathered in a tree. Not everybody, but I'm saying they did that. I've heard. I know it happened to one of my uncles, and I know it's happened to other people. So one of my uncles, my mother's- He always hated that. I guess that remind him. So his favorite daughter married an [LAUGHS] Anglo and he disowned her. He completely 280:00disowned her. He didn't want nothing to do with her. My Mom come and, "Marcos, que tienes?. What's the matter with you? It's your daughter." "No, I told her not to marry you know-, how could she do that?" And he was pretty wealthy you know. He left money and a little farm that my grandmother left him. And he disowned her completely you know. Until the baby was born. [LAUGHS] When that baby was born, forget about it, you know. You know what family does. Oh, man. That was his favorite grandkid. So you know, I always say there, it's not- When we grew up and we get this anger, we can't keep it over to you know, especially to them because they're going to grow up in a different way that they, different people and everything. So no, it's changed. You know. But you know, those are the things that, you know, we grew up separated you know. We grew up different. And so we still have this animosity or whatever. And sometimes, you know, like 281:00to me, when I feel somebody's being racist again, oh boy. You know, like I'm very passionate and you know, I'll make remarks. You know, I respect- Like everybody knows, I respect everybody. I give respect to anybody. A bum, a black, whatever, it doesn't matter. But you know, if you are disrespecting me, then you know, I tend bring all this corajes that kind of- So I don't want people to be in that, you know, hopefully... I wish people wouldn't have to go through things like that.

04:41:29:12

INT: What do you think are the greatest lessons you've learned in your filmmaking career?

EG: Well, I don't know about lessons, but what I've learned is that films are very powerful. And documentaries especially. I think- I don't know who said it, but they say they're like weapons you know. And I'm beginning to see that. That 282:00I can go around talking, interviewing every day on you know, Tejano radio or local radio, and I can do it for 10 years and I probably would never reach the audience that I could reach with you know, just getting it, a screen or now in video. And YouTube or anything like that. So that's one thing that I never knew that, how powerful films were going to be and how we can use them to get our stories out. The only regret I have is that we didn't have the money or the technical expertise, or the acting abilities and what have you, that some people would like to criticize. And when they say, I say, "I don't mind. It's the truth. You know, we weren't professionals." But our story was trying to get the story out and with what little money we had, we had to do it. So in that regard 283:00the most impact that has come to me is how powerful you know, film is as a medium to get out there. And the regrets are that we don't have too much say-so in the media. We don't have control. Like I wish I could be talking like this on you know, Good Morning America, or some shit like that. Look at all the people that could instantly know who the hell or whatever, or be interested. I mean, I can, again, I tell people, I get interviewed a lot, but you know, like how many people are actually going to know about it? So you know, that's the sad part, that we still haven't been able to capture, like the blacks. The blacks have been able to come up with their own you know, TV shows, their own productions, their own channels. You know, the BET, and all this VH1 or whatever you know, that they have. Nothing but black you know, commentaries, educators, whatever you know. We don't have that, you know. And Mexico has it, but we don't have 284:00access to it. You know, I hate that, that Mexico can come in here and do whatever they want, and talk and everything. And I... I'm not hating the Mexican. I'm just saying the power that they have, the control they have in the media. And yet, we can't do it. And that's why when Cisneros was with Univision, you know, I criticized the fact that he was there and he never did anything you know, to open up for us. And he was the Chicano that was the most powerful Chicano in Univision. And nothing happened. So those are the things that bother me, that we don't have that media to be able to reach people to. You know, I know that there's people that would love to help out with me. But how are they going to know who I am? When they find out, I have doctors and you know, people that are you know, contributing and want to help out. Like I go to Michigan, I already have a couple of people are trying to set up something so that I can get some money to speak, or to show a film or something at the last minute kind of 285:00thing. You know, there's no preparation for it. I wish you know, like we had that contact, that communication that instantly I could... You know, we don't. That's sad. [INT: We don't have a network yet.] We don't have a network.

04:45:03:14

INT: What would you say is your proudest achievement? Can you pick one?

EG: Woo. [LAUGHS] I always used to say to survive. I never thought I was going to live beyond 35 years old. I thought you know, about 35 would be it. I thought that was my age that I- Because of all the things that were happening when I was going through... I didn't think I was going to live. So after I did survive, especially the stabbing that I told you earlier. You know, I kind of accepted that we're all here for some kind of purpose. And I don't try to be you know, this- But what I'm saying is it does seem like something, everybody has something to contribute. And I guess my contribution has been you know, to bring this out, you know, the Chicano cinema kind of because when you know... I've had 286:00people, like Alex pushing me away. I'm not talking about big, important people, but you know, I've had people that you know, have directed me or tried to, you know, that see something. "No, Efrain." So whenever I hear things like that, you know, even like from Chon, what they've done, or even now in the academia. They tell me these things you know, and I never, I was ignorant of all this. But when they say, you know, I go... you know, it's like seeing a life- I've had like seven times that I think I should have died and I haven't died. I almost got killed when I was 10 years old, when we were migrants. I fell from a truck and we were picking up tomatoes and putting them in the, and I ended up under the wheels. And I was able to curl up and you know, it cut my back. It broke, you know, it damaged my back. It didn't break it, but damaged my back. After that, I 287:00could never really run that fast, keep up with my cousins. Before that, I was real fast. So they told me that it was damage that happened. But I was lucky because I was able to curl up just before the wheels went over. I was shot at. I've been shot at you know, twice you know. One time you know, at that concert that we were talking about, the Revolution Chicana concert. We did 72 hours. At the end, Steve Jordan and I were on the stage. He was the last band at five in the morning. We had kicked out some people because they were rowdy. And they went around because the exit was through the back. And when they were leaving, they shot at the stage. And we just heard zoom zoom! So anyway, I go, "Well, I'm glad they didn't hit us." And then I had the heart attack you know,. If I would have been there another three, four minutes later they told me, you know, either you would have been pretty brain damaged or you know, you might not have survived. And I thank my son. And that's another reason that my son and I work a 288:00lot together. Not because he's a boy and like people say, "Well, he's a boy. That's why," you know, tradition. "No, no, no." I treat all my kids the same. But because I give him credit for saving my life, because when I had the heart attack, he's the one that forced me literally to go to the hospital when I was- And when I got there, they said, "You're having a heart attack right now." And they rushed me in right away, gave me the shot. So they told me if you had been later you wouldn't have made it. So in that regard, I tell my son, you know, "In a way, I owe you these next 16 years that I've been living." You know, so a lot of those things that he wants to take over, like my films and you know, he's in charge or whatever. And my girls understand you know. I'm letting him be in charge, not because I love him more than all of you, but because I'm kind of indebted to him.

04:48:35:13

INT: How would you like to be remembered?

EG: Oh, wow. [LAUGHS] I would just... I would hope that people would understand that half of the things that they hear about me are not really true. [LAUGHS] And I mean it both good and bad, you know, because a lot of people want to give 289:00me a lot of credit for a lot of things. And I go, "Well, you know, no. That wasn't me." Or you know, and sometimes they want to give me a lot of bad credit. I said, "No, you know, that-" So what I'm getting at, I don't think that other than what I've done, yeah. I think now I'm beginning to understand that it was something positive, something good, and something that we did that made some changes. But I would just like to be, like I tell them, I would like to be remembered by my family, my kids, my grandkids. You know, because I love my- I'm so tied in with my family, that even though you know, they're scattered, but we're still together. I would just like them to understand you know, my life. And by that respect, that you know, we should be grateful that we're here. And while we're here, try to do good. And if you're trying to do good, don't... Like I keep telling my son, "Don't get too creido you know. Like don't do that." He, "Nah." Because he likes to be treated special. "Oh, they treated me this or..." 290:00And I hate it. I'm the kind of person, everybody knows me. If I go to church, I 291:00sit in the back. If I go anywhere, you know, I don't want to be in the front. You know, I don't look for the spotlight. I respect, I like to hear people. But I don't think that other than that, humans should be you know, revered that much you know. I know that a lot of people, once they get a name or they get high or you know, they tend to think they're... Nowadays, I see Donald Trump, you know. He thinks he's so special, whatever. But you know, like even Cesar Chavez, you know, at the end he became more of a religious you know, kind of be like, iconic kind of, you know, like some kind of saint or something you know. I didn't think that that's right. You know, because no matter, you know, even bishops you know, that I've known Bishop Flores. I don't think that you know, they're, so they're saintly, you know. So I don't think any of us are saints or like- I don't think anybody's that good or that pure. But yeah. We're good and we're bad. But I don't think anybody, like they say, "The only one prophet was Jesus Christ." You know. Never did anything wrong. [LAUGHS] But us, you know, we have to learn. So I think that's the- I would like to be my family more than anything else to- I think they do now, but I don't want them to do know me because I'm a filmmaker and I did my... No. I want them to know, you know, especially now that I want to finish this project with the migrants, because I want them to know the history of where my grandparents come, where my ancestors come from on my mother's side and my father's side. You know, and I'm giving all these stories also of my 292:00family together. And I'm kind of being the historian now of the family. You know, my cousins are contacting me for information and things like that. Pictures. And so, you know, everything grows so fast you know. And everybody forgets you know, that you... Most people don't remember their grandparents anymore, you know. And I feel it's sad that you know, my grandparents died when I was born, almost the same year that I was born he died. So I never met my grandparents on my mother's side. Her father, he was an Italian, and then married my father who was from Mexico. But you know, there's stories that I wish I, you know, and something I can see what they went through. And that's what I'm trying to let my, you know, remember, even through my films, you know, that they know that's part of me, it's in all the work that happened. Through good or bad, but part of it is there. And that's, like I said, that's what I would, in my films, whatever, I hope that other people understand it. But to me, you know, 293:00I'm hoping that my family will understand who we are, especially going to my mother and father's family. So I think that's important. A lot of times we forget our history. And as we get you know, too much history, we tend to forget you know, where we're coming from. And that's one thing I don't want my family to ever forget.

04:53:16:05

INT: Is there anything else you want to say or anything that we missed?

EG: I see too much fake in us. In not only in filmmaking, of course, but I'm talking about even in the academia. And I brought it up with Chon and stuff. Academia seems to have a different understanding a lot of time of what the real life was. And that bothers me a little bit. Even when I'm given a lot of credit, you know, yeah. It makes me feel good, but I said, but no, that's not, you know... I wish that you know, I would be able to really make- Like Chon and I 294:00are very different. We know each other. We come from two completely different worlds. And yet, we... He tries to understand me and I try to understand him. And he tries to make me understand, like I said, I was never a very educated person until later years. So those are some of the things that bother me. That some people you know, are pushed by the academia and more than they should be. I don't mean to pick names, but anyways. He probably has his own story. But I see people that... People think that they're doing great, but the way we know it and the way we see it, we say they're not. But yet, they're in the positions that they control or they have. And one of the issues that I took was with Edward James Olmos. When he took over the public, what is it? The national... Public 295:00television. And everything goes to him because like, when I grew up, like I tell, but there was five actors. Ricardo Montalbán. What was his name? The one that I just told you about? [INT: Anthony Quinn.] Anthony Quinn. And you know, we had a handful and they did everything. Those are the ones we saw everywhere. Now it's the same thing happening, you know. We see Edward James Olmos in almost in every damn Latino, Chicano, that comes out in public television. Or in a major movie. I think he's a good actor, you know, but I'm saying, give other people a chance. And I think that we tend to keep too much, as we get older, we take, and we don't want to let go. And we need to let the young people, we need to let these you know, actors get the opportunities. We need the filmmakers. The producers. The directors. I mean, why are we giving it to the same person over 296:00and over? And the media say, "Oh, everybody likes Edward J. Olmos." I could give you a thousand people that hate Edward James Olmos. You know, I'm not trying to be [INAUDIBLE], there's probably more that hate me. But what I'm saying is, they tend to cram things down you know, on us, whether we like it or not because we really have no control or no say-so. And that's what the things tambien, you know, that kind of you know, upset me a little bit, that bother me. Because I think that- And it also, like I told Chon, and you also push it a lot, you know. Like you tend to take the top right away and forget you know, to look like he has you know, on other things. And you know, Cheech Marin. You know. They all, but again, I have to understand that they didn't grow up like me you know. These are all people that grew up middle class you know. They grew up you know, free, basically to do what they wanted. That's great. They got the... But when they do things, they don't seem to understand the damage that they do to people like, 297:00you know, regular people like me I'm saying. Like Cheech Marin, I like him as a comedian, but I can't stand his films. I think he's the biggest you know, stereotype, a bad stereotype of a Chicano. He's always picking his butt, and you know. I mean, every time I see that, you know, it makes me want to go choke him you know. "Why in the hell did you do that? You know, why do you do those types of roles, you know? All you're doing is insulting us." I used to like the comedians, but they seem like all they want to insult Mexicanos, laugh at us. You know, they think it's funny. Well, yeah. There's some things that are funny, but that's how you're going to make your career on you know, in being a fool on TV, I don't you know... You shouldn't belong there. And I think you know, that a lot of media, especially professors at the universities and the colleges, need to take a little you know, more of that and kind of make a... In other words... How am I trying to... Don't push just because Edward James Olmos is a big star, now you know, we're going to bring him here and you know, choose his movies, talk about him, and have him talk. And it's about Chicanos and all that. You 298:00know, he wasn't even a Chicano when he was young. I mean those things bother us you know. Like we have people talking for us that really didn't walk the walk you know. You know, and those are the kind of things that I see. And I say that because now that I'm going back to universities and talking, you know, I have all these students you know, bringing up you know, questions and issues like that, and I'm telling them. And then of course, they didn't know who I was until, you know, they met me when I showed up. And then they're blown away, you know. Not because I'm so great, but they begin to see, you know, "You're for real." And that's what I want people- I said, "I'm not a great actor, but I'm for real, and I'm trying to just tell our stories as well as I can, as honest you know, as we can, and as truthful as we can." And I think that the academia 299:00needs to start you know, instilling that more into, especially the film students, that they're going to be producing. They're going to- I think we have to kind of give them a little conscience, a little you know, something that... You know, instead of going, doing like, most Chicano want to do gang movies, drug movies you know. Like I said, I don't want none of that. Yeah. Everybody said, "You did the first one." Well, it wasn't supposed to be about that. But it seems like that's all we got stuck in. That's not true you know. So when I speak to film students, I tell them, "No. There's so many stories, you know, in your family. You don't even have to go anywhere. Why do you want to go do another rap shit or you know... You want to imitate other people." And I don't want them to be imitators. They don't, you don't... Yeah. We can learn from other things, but we got to go with our own, your own thing. Whatever it is. And I think that you 300:00know, I'm seeing that where I've been, you know, the positive you know, that's coming out of the people that are really starting to get to the students. And the students are like, the Mexican-American studies are beginning to understand, and see, and be proud in you know, who they are. And I think that that's important. I've always said we need to know who we are you know, to appreciate you know, where we come from and everything. But once you know yourself, then you have some pride. And then you can basically go and do wonders. And I see that in students that are eager, but then, you know, they never... They're never really that prepared. Like I was in El Paso and I went to two, three colleges and UT El Paso. And all the students I talked to you know, because I did like a whole bunch of interviews [LAUGHS] with the kids because they're all in film. And but they all want to do something, but they don't know how to do it. I'm not 301:00talking about- They can do a project. But how are you going to distribute it? You know, I'm talking about- You got money, but I'm saying, you as like me. How are you going to distribute it? What's your audience? I mean, you know, like you should be teaching- I'm not talking about the professor. I told them, and I made a point of it, I said, "You all should be teaching these kids not only, yeah. They know the camera, the editing, the... great. The technical part. No problem. But now they want to do a project and they have no money for it. I think you all should start teaching them how to write proposals as part of the process." And so that way they might be able to get at least a little seed money to be able to do a small project. I said, "There's all kinds of-" I've gotten, I've only applied like two or three times, but I've gotten from American Lutheran Church, $3,000 here. I've gone from three different people and I've applied like five times. So I go, "You know, that's a good batting average, though." I mean, if 302:00you put out- If you can put out a 100 and you get one. Hey, man! [LAUGHS] But I mean, there is money, you know, different, depends on what you're doing. And yet, none of the kids know about it, you know? I said, "It should be combined." They said, "Well, it should be in language department." "No, no, no. It's got to be in the part of the film department because the film students need to know, you know, where, how to access some of that money for their own projects." And yet, everybody... I said, "Just look anywhere you know. What do you want to do? If you look, a Mexican or a black, or you know. There's all kinds of... But you have to write your proposals and we need to understand that there's... As long as you know how to write." And I say, "I don't, never really liked to write proposals." I said, "But I know that it, if you're a good, can write a decent proposal, you might get some funding for your project." So I think that that's something that should be included for filmmakers, is to understand that, you know, learn how to write a proposal. Not only a script, but write a proposal so that you can get some grants, so you're able to do your thing. So after I left, I feel like [LAUGHS] I wanted to write proposals. And I said, "You know what?" I 303:00think that that's something that should be encouraged more and pushed more in the film departments at the universities to get the kids to be able to have some money, because not everybody's going to have money when they want to do their projects. [INT: Well, I think that's an excellent place to end. Yeah?]

05:03:13:22

EG: I just wanted to thank all of you. Like I said, I don't know anything about the Motion Picture Academy, except that- And I don't always see the Academy Awards, because I never see any Mexicans in there, you know, unless... [LAUGHS] And I'm glad that they finally got somebody waking them up you know. The diversity that's out there. But I appreciate, you know, and I know that it's something big. I might not be around to see it or whatever, but I hope that my grandkids or something will be able to understand a little bit more of their grandparent, or whatever. And I thank... Like I said, I had never met you, but I knew you had done some work in... Which one did you work with Chon on? PLEASE 304:00DON'T BURY ME ALIVE. RUN, TECATO. [INT: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So, PLEASE DON'T BURY ME ALIVE..] PLEASE DON'T BURY ME ALIVE.. Okay. And then... Santos did another one. And I had never met the- [INT: Oh, Nancy De La Santos? No?] No, no, no. Santos. He's a writer. Anyway. He also, sorry. [LAUGHS] His name was [INAUDIBLE]. I met him and I finally told him, his mother used to be my superintendent when I taught driver's ed at Edgewood. Lucille Santos. I remember when, two years ago when they were going to interview me, remember there... They asked me, "Do you know Ramiro?" They said, "Berg." I thought they said Burr. [INT: Oh.] Do you know Ramiro Burr? [INT: No.] Okay. Ramiro Burr used to be a writer for the Express News. He started in Laredo Times and then worked in a Tejano thing. And you know, long story, but they let him go because of some 305:00problems he had at school. But he got very arrogant kind of. I knew him when he was starting out and so when they asked me Ramiro, "Would you like Ramiro or Greg or somebody to interview you? Who would you like?" Ramiro Burr. I said, "No, no, no. Not Ramiro Burr. [LAUGHS] He didn't want to. No, I'm saying I thought it was Ramiro Burr, not Ramiro Berg. They said Ramiro Burr. I said, "No, no, no. I don't want Ramiro Burr." But I knew who you were, but I didn't know you, but if I would have known it was you at that time, I always feel bad about it. I never it explained it to you, but so anyway, I thank you. [INT: My pleasure.] And now that I find out that you're one of the ones that got me nominated for the National Film Registry, you know, it's even more thanks that I owe you. But the cameramen. Everybody. I really appreciate. I really thank. And hope I didn't bore you all too much with my stories. [INT: Not at all. No way.] I could sit another night here and tell you a whole bunch more. But we don't 306:00have time. [INT: Well, Efrain Gutierrez, thank you very much for your time, and your wisdom.] Well, thank you. I appreciate that. And I hope my kids get to, one day all of you, maybe I won't see all of you, but they'll see something. [INT: You bet. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you.] Thank you.

05:06:14:01

END, EFRAÍN GUTIÉRREZ ORAL HISTORY -- EFRAÍN GUTIÉRREZ